Diversity

Including You Interview with Brittani Brown

e041. Starting from Scratch with Brittani Brown

[00:00:00]

[00:00:48] Amy: Welcome back to Including You. I’m your host, Amy C. Waninger: the inclusion catalyst. My guest today is Brittany Brown. They’re a DEI leader in the digital health space, having launched a diversity [00:01:00] office from scratch.

Starting with 250 employee company, they created support for a four Pillar DEI council, 11 ERGs, and programming that scaled to meet the company’s needs as it grew to 1200 employees.

Please welcome to the show, Brittani. Hi, Brittani. How are you?

[00:01:19] Brittani: Hey, I’m doing well, Amy. How are you?

[00:01:21] Amy: I am so excited to talk to you today, because it’s rare that anyone these days has actually had the experience of standing something up from scratch with the level of scale and the level of success that you did.

So I’m excited to talk to you about that.

[00:01:39] Amy: Can we start with why is having inclusion as a focus so important in the digital healthcare space?

[00:01:47] Brittani: Sure. And thank you for saying that. Let me just start by saying it was not easy and it was not something that I necessarily sought out to do.

It was something more so that I landed in [00:02:00] and I’m glad and I’m better for it. So, to start: why is it important in the digital health space? I think in any space, in every industry, I think DEI should be a priority. And specifically, within digital health. I had been working in digital health prior to the pandemic, and it was more so on the horizon for what was next in terms of the healthcare industry.

And when the pandemic happened, clearly everything shifted to the digital space. So it really accelerated the growth and the popularity and the demand for digital health. But we saw that it was, there were a lot of benefits from healthcare being digitized and being more accessible in that way, specifically around DEI and digital health.

When you’re dealing with health, you have to deal with the person. In DEI, you’re dealing with the person. By not including DEI when you’re dealing with people, specifically health, you miss a lot. Health equity is something that is becoming more popular and more [00:03:00] talked about, especially now that we’re stepping into really embracing and understanding what it means to be an inclusive business industry, et cetera. And health equity is becoming more of a conversation.

So, I think specifically being able to treat clients, users the best that you can, having the largest impact in reaching as many people as you can, you need to really look at your DEI approach, looking at how you’re interacting with folks and tailoring that to people’s specific needs as they are individuals and not monolith.

[00:03:33] Amy: Thank you for sharing that, and I think it’s an important conversation to have now as the public conversation has transitioned to talking about post pandemic, even while we’re seeing huge, soaring hospitalization rates for flu, RSV and covid, even as we’re seeing death tolls, stack up.

And, right now we’re recording this in December of 2022. So, we’ve moved the narrative even though the circumstances haven’t [00:04:00] changed a whole lot and there. The pullback on some of this health equity in digital health, telehealth and telemedicine especially has started to happen already.

I think I heard the other day that, know, they’re pulling away from telemedicine in the Medicare space, which is going to leave healthcare inaccessible for a lot of people. So, I think this conversation remains especially relevant in this point in time that we’re in right now. So, thank you so much for covering some of this with us.

I wanted to start with, you’re at this 250 person company, which I’m guessing since it was in the tech space and the healthcare space was in a startup mode with 250 employees. And somebody said, “Hey, we need to do something about DEI,” and the person- the somebody that needed to do something was you.

Can you talk about what the ask was in a 250-person company at the time, and how that- how the needs of the company evolved over time? [00:05:00] And then I wanna go back to how you built it.

[00:05:03] Brittani: Sure. So taking a step back the person that said there needed to be a  DI space was me. So I joined the company at a time when the George Floyd riots were happening, and I lived in Baltimore previously.

I live in Philadelphia now. But it was during that time that I was actually onboarding that the George Floyd riots were happening in Baltimore. And where I lived, you could hear helicopters. I actually missed a day of orientation, an hour of orientation because I had overslept because the power went out from everything that was happening right outside of my door.

And prior to that, I was not somebody who was really immersed in marching, advocating, things like that because I am biracial and really didn’t see a place in that for me, and was really intimidated by it. And that changed drastically when these things were happening right outside of my door.

And ironically, when I was being onboarded, I also had people in my cohort who [00:06:00] lived in Minneapolis who were white. And so you were saying that everyone was being impacted by this; not just black folks, not just people in Baltimore, not just anywhere. It was happening everywhere, and everyone was impacted.

And at that time, I wasn’t hired to do anything DEI related, but it was so pressing and the social unrest was something that everyone was talking about. That’s one of the benefits that I will say, from my opinion, was of the pandemic was when things happened, we had to pay attention. We were all sitting at home. We were all being impacted.

We all had to watch it. We weren’t out our heartbeat as one or a moment in time, and I think that was significant. And one day I was talking to my manager and I was saying, “Hey, this is something that’s really weighing on me that’s impacting me, and I think it’s impacting a lot of people and we don’t have a space for people to come together.”

And so she encouraged me to speak to HR to see what I could do. if they would be open to a group employee resource group. I didn’t know what that was at the time. And so I reached out and they responded saying that they had been [00:07:00] thinking about it too, and that they welcome any grassroots ERGs to be stood up.

And me being somebody who is black and gay, I thought, “Hey, let me start those two ERGs.” So I stood up the black ERG and the LGBTQ ERG, the first two ERGs at the company, and then by the end of the year, I was creating documentation and laying down the foundation of how to start ERGs, so that the people who had expressed wanting to start other ERGs could then follow the footsteps that I took.

[00:07:34] Amy: That’s amazing that you started two ERGs at the same time, from scratch, never having done this work before. That’s really amazing. And so where did you go? What resources did you use? Because somewhere, right, in 2022, 2023, as we’re recording and this is being aired, somebody somewhere sitting in the company going, “I need to do something.

I feel a calling to do this. I need to speak up and advocate. But I don’t know where to [00:08:00] start.” Where did you start? What resources did you rely on? Who did you follow? Who did you talk to? Did you just brainstorm it and sketch it out a napkin and implement? Or did you rely on, other experts or other people in your industry to help you?

[00:08:12] Brittani: Sure. I spent a great deal on LinkedIn. In my spare time I would reach out to people who I saw had anything, DEI in their title. I spoke to people who worked as program managers, people who were ERG leaders, and really just asked the question, “Hey, do you have time to speak to me? I’m at this company, I’m looking to stand up some ERGs and do some DEI work.

There is not a formal department. Can you help me in terms of how to create this?” My manager at the time was very instrumental in understanding. She was someone who was passionate about DE and I and had been at the company for, I think, two years prior and was trying to do things and she wasn’t able to really create much.

And so she supported me because she saw that I had a fire and I was actually getting some traction. So, I bounced some ideas off of [00:09:00] her to see what her thoughts were. And then honestly, there was a lot of literature online. DEI has been around for a long time. It has looked different than it does.

But it did exist and ERGs is something that had been created in the past, and so I looked at some of the frameworks that existed as well as those conversations that I had with people who were already working in the space.

[00:09:24] Amy: Okay. You mentioned that you set up the ERGs, the two ERGs. Did you start with the diversity council first and then the ERGs, or did the ERGs come first and then you implemented the diversity?

[00:09:33] Brittani: Sure. So the DEI council actually was a, another grassroots volunteer group of employees. And it was around maybe like 20 to 30 employees working in that space from all over the company. And so that was something that existed and was- It actually was formed when I was hired, so it was around the same time.

And so I joined and became a part of [00:10:00] that. So it was, they didn’t work together. The ERGs and the DEI council at that time, they were more so two groups. And the DEI council primarily focused on the business. So looking at how DEI is impacting employee retention and recruiting, how we’re partnering with other companies.

Even looking at how our product is impacting our clients whereas the ERGs was more so focused on these specific populations providing a safe space, providing a sense of inclusion at the company and working on initiatives.

[00:10:34] Amy: Very good. So, then you used that template that, prototyped the ERGs with the two and then expanded to 11.

Is that correct? Over time? And helped other people spin up their own?

[00:10:44] Brittani: Yeah, so I was I was working two jobs essentially. I was working full-time job doing coaching, and then I was doing a full-time job building, DEI, ERGs. And it was in the next year that I proposed having a new role. [00:11:00] And so at that time, I fully transitioned to being a DEI program manager.

And at that time, I spent so much time really building out and thinking about the foundation of ERGs how to run successful events, how to get engagements creating trainings for er g leaders, as well as running the DEI council, making sure that we had biweekly meetings, or sorry, bimonthly meetings.

And making sure that we were making an impact with the business. But yes, by the time that I left, which was two years later, I had helped stand up 11 ERGs.

[00:11:34] Amy: So, what was the difference when you started, you had, 250 employees and you’re talking about what you doubled 500, almost what?

Five times or six times the number of employees? How did the needs of the organization change with the growth and what did you need to do aside from the additional ERGs? What did the DEI office need to do to keep pace with those demands?

[00:11:56] Brittani: Great question. I think one [00:12:00] of the biggest things was, of course, looking at, as you grow, that you’re reaching more people.

Your employee base includes more people, which is why we expanded from two to 11 ERGs. Additionally, you start to see other problems. You start to see DEI in other areas, so one of the go-to trainings for all DEI departments is unconscious bias,.

What does that mean? How do you put that into Praxis? How does this inform hiring and raises and salary? And so, getting into the weeds of looking at data, looking at employee feedback and trying to implement change. And I think that’s where a lot of companies go, so I, one thing that I used to do was meet with leaders across all industries that ran ERGs or worked in DEI.

It was a quarterly meeting and we would talk and there was this model that basically showed how DEI grows with the company and where, what are the challenges, where [00:13:00] they get stuck, what you should be measuring at certain points.

And being a company that went through hypergrowth, I saw it all. And that was a lot for someone who was not doing DEI, I saw a lot. I grew and I was exposed to a lot. So I think one of the things that happens is you implement DEI, you have this mission, people are fired up. You’re showing up, you’re doing trainings, and then you hit a point where people are like, “Okay, now we see there’s a problem.

How are we changing policy? How are we restructuring our company? How are we implementing something new? How are we addressing this?” We say that it’s an open door company or we say we wanna address unconscious bias and be able to have conversations. What happens when there’s a shooting? Are we really gonna talk about it?

And so there’s a, a moment where I think companies are faced with having to walk the talk versus just talk the talk And that’s hard. I think that then becomes the moment where you see if DEI is real. And not a lot of companies are able to do that, especially when they’re [00:14:00] competing interests.

DEI is its own line item in terms of having goals and OKRs and, but so is making sales. So is standing up this new product. So is all of these things. And unfortunately, I think sometimes DEI also the wayside across all industries, not just one. I think this is something that I’m seeing as a DEI practitioner.

But in order to meet the needs and to change to, to change course in terms of goals, like from year one to year two; year one was standing up ERGs and actually developing DEI, year two was actually measuring and seeing outcomes; being able to say, “Hey, we had this percentage, now we have this percentage.”

And I think what it took was having to get really honest around numbers, having to have more conversations around like how employees felt about what we were doing in terms of DEI and what they felt we could be doing better, and then having to meet with stakeholders and have a conversation around that and try to find a happy medium between business goals and people [00:15:00] goals, employee goals.

[00:15:03] Amy: And you know, that’s always an a difficult balance, for DEI practitioners to say, “look, I wanna push a little harder. I wanna do the next thing I want to, but that’s not a hill I can die on because the next one’s bigger.” Or that’s- I don’t want that fight to be my last fight because I’ve got another fight that I need to do, or I don’t, I can’t advocate for one group at the expense of advocating for another group.

There’s always these trade offs. But it sounds like in the work that you did, you saw real progress in the organization, that you were creating an awareness that made people reengage, want more, want to take the work further and want to have a broader impact even during growth, which can be a hard time to get people to focus on anything other than the endless to-do list of the growth.

What kinds of results, what kinds of business results did you see and what kinds of culture results did you see from the work that you did?

[00:15:54] Brittani: Sure. In terms of business results, I was seeing the company actually start to think about this from [00:16:00] a product standpoint. How can we infuse or take what we’re doing in terms of DEI and apply it to our product and the people the people who are trying to touch our clients, our users? So that was something that was huge.

Going from only measuring- not only, but primarily focusing on employee retention, hiring feedback, surveys, those type of things to looking at, “Okay, what populations are we working with? What are the populations that we aren’t touching? What are the things that we’re not understanding about our clientele?”

And I thought that was huge. And-

[00:16:34] Amy: Yeah, in the health, if you look, forgive me the interruption for a second, I just wanna put a point on this, because in the healthcare space, when we’re serving clients better, that means we’re saving lives. That means we’re improving quality of life. It means that we’re impacting families and communities.

These are not small. They might feel like small, incremental moves, but these are life changing improvements that you’re making in the lives of your patients and your clients. [00:17:00]

[00:17:00] Brittani: Yes. And that’s, that is for me, I actually stepped away to learn more about products because- I’m- I believe tech is the future.

I believe that it’s here to stay. And I think digital health is also the future, and that’s really what I’m passionate about. But I actually have this book, A building for Everyone, is written by Annie Jean Baptist. She works at Google, and she helped to stand up the product inclusion department, which is essentially looking at how are we building products?

We need to make sure when we’re building products, that we’re looking at diverse sets of people, including them in the process of building and designing and testing, so that we are able to actually reach these people and have a broader impact on people’s lives on the world. And so I think that is the future of DEI. I don’t think DEI is just gonna be an internal focus where we’re looking at if employees are happy or if they belong. That matters.

And companies are built to serve people. And if we can have a two-pronged approach of looking [00:18:00] internally and looking externally and looking at who we’re reaching, DEI is going to transform, evolve to something greater. It has evolved from what DEI was 10 years ago, with this, with what has happened since being in the pandemic and all the uproar and all the energy.

And it will change again. And my prediction is that it will be external facing as well. But yes, it is huge and especially when it comes to health, healthcare in terms of access, in terms of really looking to say- okay, we know in a traditional healthcare setting, it’s a one-on-one conversation, it’s a pharmaceutical drug.

It’s more of a broader generic, “You have this, take that. Whereas digital health, Who has access to a smartphone, who has access to the internet? Where are they getting this information? Is this in information, something that they can read and understand?

Is this an actual useful product to them? What does this product need to look like?” Things like that. I think it can be more tailored and more able to be modified in a way [00:19:00] that more people use it. And so I agree with you. It is huge that digital health company is looking at.

[00:19:07] Amy: And I’m sorry I cut you off.

I just, it’s, I get passionate about a few things and one of them is health equity. But you were gonna talk a little bit about, I think you were getting ready to transition into the kind of the cultural impacts internally of the work that you were doing. And I don’t wanna miss out on that.

[00:19:19] Brittani: Yeah. So internally really seeing the culture, the company culture embraced DEI. So having a DEI calendar on everyone, every employee’s calendar where they could see what was going on, cultural holidays and celebrations as well as ways that they can get involved in the company from ERG meetings, guest speaker, series on trainings, all of that.

One of the things that I feel, I was most proud, of was creating a companywide 5K run for Pride month. At the time it was around 500 employees and 300 employees participated. [00:20:00] So great turnout, first companywide event that we ever did and really had a great turnout with that. Beyond that, had virtual potlucks so of bonds and working on scholarships.

Trying to make sure that we were providing access for more diverse talent to enter into the career space that then can be chosen and hired from there on. And I think in the later years, or the latter, my latter time at the company.

One of the impacts that I would say that we were able to have with actually having conversations and learning more about pay equity and kind of the ability to move within the company and what that looks like how to help people move, how to understand transferring departments and changing your careers within a company.

And how did that impact you? So, if you start doing this job and you get paid this, and then you move over here [00:21:00] and the salary is this, how do we account for that? How do we make sure that you are equipped and how do we put help to facilitate safe, facilitate change?

How do we enable you to grow in these ways. And so looking at apprenticeship programs and internal like, internship programs where you are able to make shifts into the career field or the department of your interests and giving you a chance to develop those skills while on the job. Yeah.

[00:21:31] Amy: It’s just amazing what you were able to accomplish in such a short time there, and in the context that you were able to do it right in the healthcare space, in digital health, in a pandemic during unprecedented growth, unprecedented in demand for what you were doing, but also, exponential growth of your company.

It’s just amazing what you’ve accomplished in just such a compressed timeline. And I understand necessity, breeds I think I think I’m gonna butcher this, but in my mind, necessity breeds productivity.

We get it done because we have to get it done. And it sounded like [00:22:00] you really had to. What’s next for you, Brittani?

[00:22:02] Brittani: Great question. I am really noticing a shift in myself. And I have become obsessed with this idea of product inclusion, inclusive design and not wanting to necessarily step into design or product alone but wanting to infuse that within DEI.

I think my experience is unique. I, like I said, I don’t traditionally come from a DEI background. I was a health coach and so I come from a people side of really wanting to connect and understand and create personable relationships and unique solutions for each individual and merging that with the concept of DEI.

So I bring that really understanding that no two people are a monolith no community is a monolith. And so we have to really get in the weeds and nitty gritty in terms of understanding what people’s needs are how they really are diverse. And creating [00:23:00] equitable and inclusive solutions for them.

And now from being in that space, seeing that DEI is not just an internal focus. It is not just about resource groups and councils and events and initiatives that are internal, that is important and companies are created in touching millions of lives.

How do we take it a step further and look at the products that we’re using, the products that we’re creating and being critical about how it can be more inclusive for you and touch more diverse folks lives.

So I think what’s next for me is really focusing on how to land in a place where I’ll be able to do this work. Working with product, working with DEI, using my coaching skills to make sure that I am understanding the person that I’m building for, working with and trying to serve.

[00:23:53] Amy: Wonderful. I wish you all the best, and I hope that you will follow back up and we can learn more when you get into [00:24:00] that space and learn how you’re adapting and how you’re using what you’ve learned to advance in that space as well.

Brittani: Thank you.

Amy: Thank you, Brittani.

[00:24:56] Amy: That’s it for this week’s episode of Including You. Join me next week [00:25:00] when my guest will be Shannon Pope from Sony Electronics North America.

Including You Interview with Shelley Jeffcoat

e040. Employee Experience with Shelley Jeffcoat

[00:00:48] Amy: Hi, welcome back to Including You. I’m your host, Amy C. Waninger, the Inclusion Catalyst. This week my guest is Shelley Jeffcoat. Shelley is the Director of employer brand and architect of Values and [00:01:00] Culture at LexisNexis Risk Solutions. LexisNexis is a portfolio of brands that span multiple industries, providing customers with innovative technologies,

information based analytics, and decision tools and data services. They employ about 9,500 people globally. Shelley, welcome to the show.

[00:01:20] Shelley: Thanks for having me. And so right off, I am so excited to be here. It is LexisNexis Risk Solutions, because LexisNexis is our sister company, so I wanna make sure we give a shout out to the right organization.

Amy: Sorry about that. I’m sorry.

Shelley: No it’s- that’s a part of branding, that we’ve been working on as well. So that kind of bleeds right into everything else that we’re doing. But yeah, I’m excited to be here.

[00:01:41] Amy: I’m excited to have you here. Thank you so much. I wanna start with inclusion, I’m assuming is part, a big part of the values and culture at your organization.

Why is inclusion so important at LexisNexis Risk?

[00:01:58] Shelley: Oh gosh. So our people [00:02:00] are why and how we do things, so when we built out our values and cultures, so it is standard to what a lot of a lot of other organizations do and we all call it EVP or employee value proposition. It was important to not just have buzz, buzzwords, and taglines,

we wanna make sure that we’re reflecting an authentic experience here being included, in being inclusive are really key. We have a global footprint, not only with our employees but also with our customers and our clients. So, there’s no way it would be able to be as successful as we are if we didn’t operate within that model.

And quite frankly, it makes people happy to be here. Happy employees are productive. Those productive employees help us to be as successful as we are financially as well and helps us along the lines of all of our corporate responsibilities and everything that we do for the local communities that we serve.

So being inclusive is much more than just the word. It is actually a part of who we are. We have a wonderful group of talent [00:03:00] across a diaspora of different backgrounds, ages, job levels, the way we think. All of those things are tied up in that bow.

[00:03:09] Amy: It’s interesting because you mentioned a couple of different things.

You mentioned your employee population and being more productive and being more engaged. But you also mentioned this notion of matching the clients that you serve and matching the market. Can you talk a little bit about that and how inclusion in the company has helped grow the company from the inside out?

[00:03:27] Shelley: Yeah. So imagine, imagine going, so for example: back in the day, I was an engineer. It is one of the jobs I had, and at the time I was, again I’m a female woman for those who might be visually impaired. I am af- I’m actually black. I’m Jamaican, so I’m black. I’m wearing a dark black sweater and I have big gold-colored glasses on.

So just for those individuals. So imagine walking in the room where you’re going in to pitch a product or a service, and the folks who are sitting across from you are already questioning your credibility based on your appearance. [00:04:00] Do you understand the problems and issues that we have? Are you speaking even the same language, or do are, or how are we actually connecting?

At the very basic, you have to be able to connect with your clients, so it’s not just about, going in with the next shiny new solution; you have to connect. So for- When we think about the communities that, again, communities where we live, the communities that we serve and our clients, we wanna match that.

You’re gonna have more trust with me, more respect with me as a person who’s gonna provide a solution. And the clients that we serve, we don’t even talk about half of them, because a lot of them are government contact contracts or federal, insurance agencies, aviation industries, we’re touching a large gamut of different perspectives as well.

Taking that off the table where you’re going in and you’re not feeling trusted or respected, or you’re speaking to a community that looks nothing like you, that doesn’t, the way that we might have operated in like the eighties and nineties when we’re doing [00:05:00] business that way, didn’t- doesn’t work now, so why would you consider that concept?

We hire our talent from various pools. So for example, we’re not just looking at, students or college applicants from the same universities, the same location. We’re also not looking for talent within the same age range.

So we’re not just looking at if you’re 30 plus, then you must be the expert. So again, that is reflective of what the market is telling. The market is looking at, do you have the right people on the job to provide me the solutions that I need? And then how do you match that? And we’re doing that through our inclusive talent.

[00:05:37] Amy: You also mentioned about inclusion being how people feel about their work. Or feel being at work. What are you doing specifically to help people feel included and connected at work? I know employer brand is part of your job. But I’m curious, like what are the initiatives or the steps that you’ve taken to move the needle on that?

[00:05:56] Shelley: So the first thing that we did when I when I created the- so the values [00:06:00] and culture are the foundation of everything that we do. Everything and I mean from attraction to retire. Okay? So this is not about employer brand like most companies or a lot of companies do, where it’s small B and it’s all social media.

This is literally taking our values and culture and aligning in into the experience. So how we measure performance. Our learning culture through talent development, retention strategies, employee referral programs. We have over 35 employee resource groups. So everything that we do, even as values and culture is embedded into our D&I strategy.

There is no out. So one of the things that is important to us is we reinforce and we reward the behavior. So if we’re saying- and by the way, being inclusive and being diverse, they’re part of our actual value statements. And so now we wanna see that echoed into the way that we work together. How do we connect? How do we collaborate with each other?

So we’ve done a really good job of making sure that [00:07:00] our employee resource groups, they have this language, they understand what it is within the experience. We talk about those strategies, what do we want it to feel like for you when you’re here? The way that we deliver all of our programs and support tools, we have a lot of internal programs that really focus on diverse hiring.

How do you onboard employees? And as you’re coming into the employees and you hire, do you have a good sense of what you’re joining? I make a statement all the time when I think about employer brand, and I always liken it to a dating app, and I’m not on any dating apps, but I’m just telling you this is what I use.

When I think about… Imagine you’re going to the dating app and you’re looking up this organization and you’re swiping and you’re thinking, oh, it looks great, the environment looks great, beautiful pictures, ping pong tables, hybrid work one day a week and I’m in. And then imagine you show up.

Nothing like that. It’s, it’s a, it’s an old dirty building and no one’s there and no one’s connecting and teams don’t talk to each other. That’s what we wanted to [00:08:00] escape. So in order for you to do that, you have to actually align those values and culture and integrate it into your talent strategy.

And that runs all the way again from how you attract, all the way from the way that you exit people through the business.

[00:08:15] Amy: Did I hear you right that you have 35 different employee resource groups?

[00:08:19] Shelley: Yes. 35 employee resource groups!

[00:08:22] Amy: Okay. Help me understand because most companies have half a dozen, maybe eight on the high end. Yes.

I’ve never heard of a company that had 35. Can you talk a little bit about that?

[00:08:36] Shelley: Yeah. Okay. So employee resource groups they fall under our D N I function and that’s how they operate here. And one of the things that we’ve been able to do, so our organization is actually constructed of seven individual brands.

Okay, so when we’re talking about 9,500 employees, we’re also talking about seven individual brands or maybe business units or what people are outside the business would use. [00:09:00] And so you have all of these different culture aspects. We have a lot of acquisitions. We’re global. And so we want, what we wanted to do is to make sure that we create an environment where if you came in and there was a need and there was a group that you could build to support that.

And you- there, there’s a process that employee resource groups go to. You can’t just stand up another ERG, but you have to align back into our diversity and inclusion strategy. And if you could do that and there’s enough traction around that, then yeah, you could start up an employee resource group and a lot of ’em work together.

So for example the Pride Group in Georgia works very well with the Pride Group in London. And those are two separate groups because they have different localized audiences. So breaks itself down that way. We have some areas that we focus on and, again, very similar to what a lot of what might consider gender and equitable and, all of those different areas. But that’s it.

We have 35. It does run surprisingly well. Our employees are [00:10:00] very active. I can tell you that, one of the things that we wanted to do is to make sure that regardless of where you are in the business globally, your time zone, there’s always something that you can get engaged and you can participate and you can do.

Because we’re now operating in hybrid, we still manage our events in that way. So there might be some that are onsite. There might be some that are virtual, but having these many employer resource groups help us to meet your need wherever you are. So it sounds like a lot; we- there’s a lot of concerted efforts that the groups meet every quarter.

I come on those calls because I’m constantly trying to drive in our values and culture and make sure we’re all aligned, we’re saying the same thing. And then those groups will make their plans and they’re run by employees. They love what they do. This is part of, what makes it a great place to work for us.

[00:10:52] Amy: I think that’s just incredible that you are running that many. I just can’t imagine the commitment and the negotiations that had to happen to make that happen. Yes. Let’s just [00:11:00] say that.

,

But what have you seen in terms of results? Clearly, you’re getting a lot behind this. What’s this doing for you?

Are you measuring, reduced turnover? Are you measuring employee engagement? Yes. How, what, where are the numbers? Trending because of all this work.

[00:11:13] Shelley: Yeah. So a little bit all over the all over the board. So without giving out our numbers When I take a look, some of the things that I think about is, do people, some of the traditional metrics around, employee referral, for example.

What does that number look like? How many, what is the percentage of hires that were sourced in that manner? And I’m not looking at that from a, because I don’t work for talent acquisition, I’m not looking at it from a, okay, now we need to create a different campaign perspective. I’m looking at that as a way of measuring how people feel about the business they’ve worked for because if you’re not happy about where you are, you’re not gonna tell your friends and family to come here.

That’s just fact. So I look at it from that perspective. But we use traditional employee engagement metrics. We. Our EOS survey. We also [00:12:00] have- we use a couple of external culture services.

So for example, or reporting wise, comparably we use because it’s confidential and every quarter our employees will go in and give their feedback and we can tell really quickly how people are feeling based on even the number of responses. Cuz you’re not able to drill deeper or if we look at our EOS scores or NPSs just the standard things.

But we’re also looking at retention and attrition. One thing about attrition, is it a number that we can live with? Is this a number that I, this is a number that I can digest. Is it comfortable? Is it 10 between 10 and 12%? If it’s trending in, in, in different ways, what does that mean?

What is it telling us within the business? And then in my function for EVP, because I work. So closely with our HR leaders, talent development, d e i, talent acquisition corporate com marketing. I’m probably missing somebody. Legal. I work with all of these employee experience and because I work with all of these senior leaders, then I’m able to tap into some of the data [00:13:00] points that we’re getting back from what’s happening within the business and taking pulse surveys and things of that nature.

Very similar. I think the one thing. Organizations can do very well is just ask the question and it’s not a matter of asking the question to the same group. Don’t keep going to your ERG leaders to ask them how they think things are going. Don’t keep going back, if you’re in talent development.

Don’t keep throwing out surveys to, manager capabilities, survey surveys or leadership effectiveness surveys. Don’t keep going to the same group for the same- what you end up getting is the same response. Try to get a different target group each time and that will give you a better perspective of what’s happening in the business.

[00:13:38] Amy: Yeah. It’s interesting to me whenever I talk to data companies, because I know they’re gonna have a good data answer based on, people from data companies are always like, oh, it’s in the data, it’s in the data. And then I’ll talk to people, from companies that are not as data-focused, and they’re like it’s just, it just feels different than it used to here.

And it’s always interesting to see how the answers always correlate to the kind of business.

[00:13:58] Shelley: Yes, absolutely. I’m, I do a [00:14:00] mix of both because I also have my ear to the ground and I tend to, I talk to, About I’ll just ping someone off the bat and just, it’s not a formal medium.

I’m just saying, Hey, how are things going and how is it work? How are we working for you? How is hybrid working for you? And I’ll get some anecdotal data that way. But it’s just, you gotta ask the question. I think a lot of companies are afraid to ask the question. We hide the response, we hide the data, and then you don’t end up solving anything.

[00:14:27] Amy: Yeah, I agree. And a lot of the clients that I work with, I encourage them, get some baseline data if you’ve never measured before. Yes. At least measure once. Because you’re, you will, you’re likely, first of all, you’re likely to find some really good news in there that you’re not expecting.

Yes. And second, you might find something that is so unexpected, that you don’t wanna waste your time trying to solve a problem you don’t even have.

[00:14:50] Shelley: That’s right. And sometimes there’s good news. I that is another thing. When I joined the organization three years ago, I joined in 2019 and I was hired to build this function.

I wasn’t [00:15:00] here before. Nobody knew what it was, but they knew they needed to have it. So, I came in having worked at another large organization, but I did things very differently this time because I learned some lessons. Okay,. So, take your lessons with you. That’s lesson number one. Take your lessons with you.

And when I came here I realized that there was that aversion to data, but there was an aversion to even ask the question because people thought the answers were gonna be, they never asked the question, so they were setting up the hopes of this is never gonna work and people aren’t gonna- we’re never gonna get on board with this, and all of those things.

And yet when we asked the question, things were way better than they thought. So you could build on that. So some of that is, is I think it’s a mind shift change when you talk to people about what we did, it is a full-on culture transformation that happened and we launched our EVP in March of 2020.

I don’t know if folks remember what March in 2020 happened, ‘cause there was some other things that were happening around the world at that time. So, imagine, we made [00:16:00] that decision and it was strategic. We were already talking about who we are. As an organization, here’s our chance to really message that out externally.

And then really, I wanted to get our employees behind it. So how do you get to a place where you have seven different- because we have one employer brand function, but there’s seven unique positions. There’s seven EVPs happening internally. That’s how it’s, that’s how it’s functioning.

But it all ties back to, what it is that you want the employees to experience at the end of the. So, we can use those terms belonging and inclusive. We can look at data all day long, but if you haven’t set that foundation in place, it means nothing.

[00:16:42] Amy: Absolutely. And Shelly, I’m curious with what you’ve done so far and Probably during the most challenging time to do it. Yeah. Because you came in right as Covid as the world shut down.

And then, in the following months, we had the murder of George Floyd. We had This [00:17:00] whole, Groundswell around, a, an awakening to racism in our-

At least in this country that I think was long overdue. It seems to have subsided a little too quickly for my taste in terms of people like committing and following through on their commitments. But it’s been a tumultuous couple of years. And it sounds like you’ve accomplished a lot in that time.

What are you looking for next year or, in the near future that you’d still like to do?

[00:17:25] Shelley: So, where we are- So, thank you for that. Yeah. It was tough, and I don’t mean to make it sound like it was easy, y’all. It was one of the most challenging jobs ever because imagine that I am the face of our culture.

And I’m having to show up in a boardroom in a conference room on calls and putting on that mask. Not the medical mask, but putting on that mask. Still having to show up and to say, “This is still a great place to be despite what’s happening outside of my doorstep.”

I think what made it work so well though is because we [00:18:00] had a level of, and I still do have a level of trust and commitment from our C-Suite leaders, and they were modeling the behavior that we wanted to see in our employees. So the support was there and that kind of, I think, I’m very fortunate that kind of support helped me a lot.

So going forward next year what I’m thinking about is as I’m shifting the function more, more to be aligned with employee experience, is how do you then make sure that the EVP itself is operationalized within talent development, specifically talent development, and in our D&I strategies.

How do you make sure- so what does that look like? How do you make sure that the HR community is actively taking part of the culture? How do you, obviously that’s important because they are, I call them influencers, so HR, influencing the way that the business operates from a people’s strategy perspective.

Right. From a D&I perspective, when we talk about targeted hiring. So, for example, we’re, sales is a, obviously a RevGen function for us. So how do you [00:19:00] make sure that the culture within sales itself, building a sales community, and again, this is not about small B. This is not s small B branding where you’re making pretty stuff.

Okay? This is how do you build a strategy around creating an environment that fosters, being inclusive just to touch on that word and what does that look like and how do you reward the behaviors around that? So that’s what we’re moving into. Just trying to take the EVP further.

We, employer brand for me is essentially over. We’ve built the brand, we have our taglines. We have all of the external facing. Who, what our values and cultures are and our se sense of purpose. Now it’s just digging a couple layers. And shifting that into the actual employee experience and that’s where we’re moving to next.

[00:19:42] Amy: That is very cool. And I wish you every success in the work that you’re doing and in the bridges that you’re building across your organizations I just think it’s fabulous, the work you’re doing. Thank you so much.

[00:19:52] Shelley: Why thank you. Thank you so much for having me.

[00:20:00]

[00:20:43] Amy: That’s it for this week’s episode of Including You. Join me next week when my guest will be Brittani Brown.

Including You Interview with Dr. Rosalind Cohen

e039. Belonging & Connection with Dr. Rosalind Cohen

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[00:00:48] Amy: Welcome back to Including You. I’m Amy C. Waninger, the Inclusion Catalyst. My guest today is Dr. Rosalind Cohen. She’s the founder and CEO of Socius Strategies, a San Francisco based [00:01:00] consultancy that helps new businesses, startups, and established companies develop inclusion and belonging in their work culture through collaborative leadership assessment and mentoring.

She’s a sole proprietor and I’m excited to have her as my new friend. Welcome to the show, Dr. Cohen.

[00:01:15] Dr. Cohen: Thank you so much for having me. I’m super excited to be here.

[00:01:20] Amy: I am excited to talk to you because we share a passion for inclusive leadership. And while I have some experiential and anecdotal data on this topic, you’ve actually done all the work to get your Ph.D. in exactly this.

And I wanna dive into this a little bit today because I think your work is so fascinating and I think the lessons that you have uncovered along the way are gonna be very valuable to our viewers and listeners. So can you talk a little bit about the research that you did for your thesis? And I’ll ask some follow-up questions once we establish a premise here.

[00:01:53] Dr. Cohen: Yeah, absolutely. Happy to do so. My research centers around inclusive leadership and employee engagement, there are two [00:02:00] questions,, that I ask. One, are they connected? And two, does identity play a role in any of it? Spoiler alert, they are connected, and spoiler alert, identity does play a role in it.

The- what the research that I conducted found was there are eight behaviors of inclusive leaders. And let me just reframe the fact that I this was an established premise that I reinstate, that I reinforce. So these behaviors of inclusive leadership are not new. I didn’t come up with them but reinforced them in the context of my study.

I also found that there are three types of engagement that organizations should be aware of when they are going through a talent acquisition or when they’re looking to hire people. So the first, and in no particular order actually, one is called positive cognitive engagement or the “I think.” The other is positive effective engagement, or “I feel,” and the other third is shared social engagement, which is “I am connected.”[00:03:00]

So what my research found was that inclusive leadership and behaviors of inclusive leadership can affect the “I feel” and “I connect.” So when managers act in specific, They will be able to affect how people feel about their work and how they feel about the people that they’re connected to in so much that they become or, and can be more engaged.

The interesting thing of this is managers’ behavior have no effect on the cognitive piece of engagement. So how I think about my work or my internal motivation. So what I did was I founded a model that is called TAMEE, T-A-M-E-E. It’s the talent acquisition model for employee engagement. And what this model says is that when you create a talent acquisition process and job descriptions and so on, you can affect the type of people who have the right cognitive [00:04:00] engagement to your job.

And then when you train people, your managers, and such within organizations, you can then affect both the, “I feel” and “I feel connected to” in type of engagement. So it’s really exciting, particularly in this time when you have talent acquisition issues. People are trying to get the, to get smart, talented people into organizations.

The ability to be able to affect those types of engagement is, I think, pretty exciting.

[00:04:28] Amy: So it’s really about the chemistry; not about the person and not about the manager, but about the combination of those two components, right?

[00:04:36] Dr. Cohen: That’s right. That’s absolutely right. It is not about, I’ll talk for a second about, so additional findings, but it is about that. One of the findings that the research showed, which was really interesting, is how, when you perceive your manager to be like, how does that affect your level of engagement?

And it does for some [00:05:00] groups. So for women, for people of color, and for folks in small and mid-sized companies, when you perceive your manager is like you, you feel more engaged. You are connected. That effective and both shared social engagement are impacted. One of the things that I think will be interesting, additional research, so stay tuned, is how do you perceive your manager to be like you.

So that part was not- as part of the study. What I think that says, ‘cause I could see a place where people say if I hire someone and they don’t look like me, forget it. I’m not gonna have them engaged, but I think that’s, I think that’s a really narrow view because when we talk about connection and we talk about senses of belonging, it’s not just how we look.

It is how we act. It is the beliefs that we have. If you look at the way in which people are connected to one another, the way in which they feel that they belong, it’s not just only about race or [00:06:00] gender, but it is about other things. And so when you have a space where people can share who they are in an authentic and genuine way, You then can create those spaces of belonging and connection because people understand each other better because they know, oh, you and I, let’s say we look nothing alike.

I, we don’t know anything about each other, but we both like horror movies. I’m gonna use this as a very basic example. Or we both have a similar belief in how we look at religion. If we have an opportunity to share that information, then my connection to you will be different and potentially will affect my level of engagement as an employee.

[00:06:38] Amy: And I would imagine a lot of that sharing is done through storytelling. Is it not?

[00:06:42] Dr. Cohen: It is through storytelling and through work. A lot of research also finds that by creating space where people just have an opportunity to talk with one another, share stories, share experiences, that’s how that kind of information comes, can come out in a more genuine way.[00:07:00]

[00:07:00] Amy: Yeah, it’s amazing the difference when you learn that somebody maybe, went to your same high school, or lived in a town that you lived in. When you and I were talking before the show, we found out that you had lived in Indiana for a short time, and that connected us almost immediately because we had a shared understanding of place.

Even though we don’t live in the same place now, and on the surface we may not have a ton in common, but we were able to connect on that. And just those little things can make a big difference because once you see yourself in somebody else, I believe you see yourself. You are rooting for them, right?

Because you wanna see them win. And if it’s your manager, and you wanna see your manager win, then you put in discretionary effort. And if you’re a manager and it’s your employees and you wanna see them win, you go the extra mile with mentoring and sponsorship.

[00:07:45] Dr. Cohen: That’s right. And to be fair, there are things that we can connect with others on that we don’t even think about connecting on.

It could be. Small intangibles. It could be the [00:08:00] fact that I’m a mom of two kids, right? And you have children. So that ability to share that kind of information becomes really powerful and really important in the structure of engagement. In the context of engagement.

[00:08:14] Amy: And so when you talk about identity you mentioned that identity plays a role in this as well, but not for everyone.

Do you have any hypotheses around why that is?

[00:08:24] Dr. Cohen: I do actually, and so the research that I found was that when women, people of color, and folks from small and mid-size companies perceive their managers to be similar, have a similarity with them, again, it affects the engagement.

I think what you’re talking about, particularly for women of color for people of color and women, is you’re talking about marginalized groups that don’t see themselves in the folks who are in leadership positions, but when there is a perception that this person is similar to me, And it doesn’t have to be about race, and it [00:09:00] doesn’t have to be about gender,

I have the ability to connect with that person and I have the ability to see myself in that person. And so therefore there becomes that level of engagement. Particularly, if you think about who are in leadership positions, a lot of the time, and particularly depending upon the industry, maybe no people of color.

There may be no women. So there, there is that space.

[00:09:22] Amy: And that’s absolutely essential. And I’m a firm believer that if we can’t see, if we can’t see ourselves down the career path or up the career ladder, it’s hard to imagine ourselves down the road in that organization or it’s hard to imagine ourselves getting to that level because it’s hard enough to do it.

It’s really hard to do it: be a trailblazer. And so if you see that somebody else has blazed that trail…

[00:09:44] Dr. Cohen: That’s right. And people of color are exhausted having to blaze those trails. So if they can see someone like them in some capacity in that role it removes I would think, as not as a person of color, but I would think it removes some of that energy that they are having to [00:10:00] put out to the world.

[00:10:02] Amy: Absolutely. Now you do. You’ve taken this work that you’ve done, this research that you’ve done, you’ve turned it into a methodology, and now you work with clients. Can you talk to us a little bit about the kinds of clients that you work with and the kind of work that you do for them?

[00:10:15] Dr. Cohen: Yeah, absolutely. I am lucky enough to work both with nonprofits, for-profits.

Right now a couple of my clients are nonprofits. A couple of them are for-profits, startups, as well as I would say, mid-size companies. And the work that I do for them is around, “What does it mean to be, to create a culture of belonging or inclusion for your organization?” So it’s not a one size fits all, right?

It’s not, I don’t have a “Here’s the rules for you, and you just follow these rules and everything will be hunky dory.” It really is about asking questions to help the organization think through. Some pivotal points around inclusion and belonging and engagement and helping them come up [00:11:00] with a strategy that makes sense for them.

The hard part I think is that there is no one shop. You can’t just take one. Methodology and put it into a variety of different companies. It has to be customized. It has to be. You have to look at the people, you have to look at where they are. One of the things that, that we try to do is figure out where is the organization and what’s the next step that we can get them to.

You’re not gonna take an organization and from a start who haven’t, who hasn’t really done any of the work in this and all of a sudden bring them to this very self, self-realized type of place. You have to take it in steps. And so that, that’s part of the work that we do.

[00:11:36] Amy: It’s funny that you said that.

I had a conversation with a client earlier today and they said, just tell us the steps we need to do to implement a D&I strategy. And I said, okay, hold on. First of all…

[00:11:44] Dr. Cohen: Yeah

[00:11:47] Amy: We have to be rooted in something, right? We can’t just, I can’t give you a checklist and say this is how this is gonna work.

That’s somebody said how do I start a business? I can tell you the legal steps you need to take, right? To start a business, but how to start and run and manage a [00:12:00] business is a completely different thing depending on what kind of business you have. And what your personality type is, and what kind of business you’re in,

what kind of clients you’re serving. So there’s so many different variables, and so when I talked to them, I talked about let’s start with “Why is this important to you as an organization?” Because you need a why that is bigger than all of the pushback you’re gonna get along the way.

[00:12:21] Dr. Cohen: And you have to be able to manage that change.

Right? That’s the other piece of this if your company is considering a D E I B strategy, cause your shareholders want it, it’s gonna be very different than the leaders within the organization feeling like there is an important factor in the work that needs to be done. And G E I B. Is rooted it is rooted in that D E I B that, that concept very different approach.

So yeah, you’re a hundred percent right. There are no steps, there is no check the box. It just, it does not work that way.

[00:12:52] Amy: Unfortunately, for the people that just wanna list and wanna go execute, we have to actually do the upfront work.

[00:12:57] Dr. Cohen: That’s right. That’s right. The “Why are you [00:13:00] interested in this?”

What has brought you to the place that this is now a question for you. Is it some trauma or some conflict within the organization? Is it because your leaders and managers recognize that this really is just a fundamental way to do business? Is it part of an ESG strategy?

What’s the purpose? What’s the reason?

[00:13:21] Amy: This customization is so important. And you said, when we were talking before the show started, before I hit record, you said you focused on three things with your clients: cultures of belonging, inclusive leadership strategies, and cultures of inclusion. How do you differentiate between the work around creating a culture of inclusion and the work around creating a culture of belonging?

[00:13:42] Dr. Cohen: I am going to use the expression, “I stand tall because I stand on the backs of those who came before me.” And Verna Meyers had this statement, which I thought was brilliant and many people do. So diversity is being asked to the dance and inclusion is being asked to dance, and there’s been some extrapolation [00:14:00] from that,

That premise, which I think is relevant here, and brings in equity and belonging. So equity is being asked to be part of the planning committee for the dance, and belonging is being able to choose the music and dance with whomever you want to. So you can create a space that people are included in,

But how are you creating a space where they feel connected? Belonging is about connection. It’s relational. It’s not just about great thanks for sitting in the room and giving your opinion, but we’re gonna do something different. It really is about that sense of connection. It’s when you feel like you have found your people, right, at a workplace.

So you there, there are different steps that you take to get to each level of those, but they have to be done together. First, you have to get to a place where you understand that this is an important feature of an organization, and then you can move from the other steps.

[00:14:56] Amy: I think that’s important. I would add to your statement, equity is getting [00:15:00] paid for the work you do on the planning committee, but that’s my own personal-

[00:15:03] Dr. Cohen: No, it’s a good point. That’s a good point. I guess I’m a mom of two teens and so I just remember all of the planning committees that you just volunteered to do as a mom because you’re a mom and you just do it. So that’s what you did. Yeah, that’s where my mind is.

[00:15:18] Amy: No, that makes sense. And then on this notion of inclusive leadership, I know you do a lot of assessments and mentorship around this. Can you talk a little bit about what that process looks like from your client’s perspective?

[00:15:31] Dr. Cohen: Yeah, absolutely. The mentorship piece is about, in full candor, I am not a coach.

I do not have any coaching certifications. What I do have is 25 years of working with people in a human resources perspective. So that’s why I talk about mentorship versus coaching. It’s about asking the right questions when you are working with someone. And a lot of it is really about, why is it that you are interested in this work.

Why is it that you do things in a particular way? [00:16:00] When I came up with this model, there are some actions that I talk about for practice that we ask folks to think about when it comes to inclusive leadership from a managerial perspective. One of the questions that I ask managers to think about or organizational leaders to think about is, “why is it that this is the process that you have always done?”

Is it because it’s just been there and you know you started the company and this is what it is, or is it something else? And if it is, once you figure out the why, who is it affecting? What does it do or how does it impact the people that you work with and is it impacting them in the way that you want it to be?

So you’re looking at the organizational structure, then you’re asking questions of the individual. How are you bringing certain behaviors to the workforce? How are you interacting with your team? What are you doing, for example, in order to make sure the [00:17:00] diverse voices are heard within a discussion or a solutions orientation?

And it’s not just about diversity on the surface, it’s about diversity or deeper diversity. So when I think about deep diversity, I think about things like introversion versus extroversion, right? How do you create a space where your introverts feel comfortable being able to say, you know what, I don’t agree with that.

Or, yes, I do agree with that, and here’s my perspective. What are you doing in order to create that space? So it’s about a lot of questions.

[00:17:34] Amy: Yeah. The questions are so important because the answers are so instructive, and if people don’t understand where they’re starting from, first of all, it’s hard to know which direction to take, but they also need to know where they want to end up.

[00:17:47] Dr. Cohen: That’s right. I could not agree more. And so by asking the questions you help people figure out. Sometimes they know we wanna get from A to Z. What’s always interesting to me is when you turn to someone and say, look, we wanna [00:18:00] increase our diversity numbers by X.

Right? Okay, great. Why exactly, what is that about? What is that about? Tell me what are you trying, what’s under that? What are you trying to achieve and why are you trying to achieve that? So it’s about asking those kinds of questions, but I believe that most people want to do good.

And so when they’re asking these questions, they’re just trying to figure out how to do it from a very positive, genuine, and authentic place. It’s my job to help them get to those answers. That, that’s how I come at it.

[00:18:34] Amy: So what kinds of results do your clients see when they work with you in this way?

How do you know that this stuff, we all wanna say as practitioners, this stuff works. How do you know it works?

[00:18:43] Dr. Cohen: It there, it’s I’m pausing because, I wanna give you a quantitative answer, and it’s hard to give a quantitative answer in this kind of stuff. If you want to increase your recruiting and looking at the people who apply in your [00:19:00] pipeline, we can come, we can come up with a way of doing that, but that’s a very siloed approach, right?

Because you may have x number of people of color, or X number of women apply, but how many make it through your pipeline? And once they’re hired, how many stay? And once they stay, how long do they stay? The process is really iterative in asking first questions. When you think about how people know that it’s successful, it does come around to employee engagement, is how connected do people feel within the organization?

So we look at statistics and numbers of engaged employees and what the baseline is and where some of that has changed to give some quantitative piece. But there’s a qualitative side of it, which is how are people feeling about the organization on a short and long term?

[00:19:48] Amy: Fantastic. And how can people find you if they want more information about your work or about your business?

[00:19:53] Dr. Cohen: Absolutely. So you can go to sociusstrategies.com or you can shoot me an email [00:20:00] at roz@sociusstrategies.com. LinkedIn is also another great way to find me, Rosalind Cohen. I love chatting with people and happy to talk more about this. So yeah, I hope to hope folks find this valuable.

Great.

[00:20:16] Amy: Thank you so much, Dr. Cohen. I appreciate your time. I appreciate your research and your expertise, and I’m so grateful for your work in this space. Thank

[00:20:24] Dr. Cohen: you. Thank you so much for inviting me. It’s been a pleasure.

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[00:21:14] Amy: That’s it for this week’s episode of Including You. Join me next week when my guest will be Shelley Jeffcoat from LexisNexis Risk Solutions.

Including You Interview with Tricia Montalvo Timm

Full Interview Transcript

[00:00:48] Amy: Welcome back to Including You. I’m Amy C. Wanninger, the Inclusion Catalyst. My guest today is Tricia Montalvo Tim. She is the board director of Salsify. Salsify is the foundation [00:01:00] of digital shelf success, a collection of diverse and rapidly evolving digital touchpoints used by shoppers to engage with brands and discover research and purchase products.

Based in Boston, Salsify employs 800 people across the U.S., Europe, and Australia. Tricia is also the author of Embrace the Power of You: Owning Your Identity at Work, which launched this week. Tricia, welcome to the show.

[00:01:27] Tricia: Thank you, Amy for having me.

[00:01:29] Amy: I am really excited to have you here to talk about Salsify and can you explain just a little bit more about what the company does and what your role is as board director?

[00:01:39] Tricia: Yes. So Salsify is a B2B enterprise SaaS software company. We sell commerce experience management products that help brand manufacturers, distributors, retailers collaborate on the digital shelf. So think about it as a system of record for products that allows retailers to bring their products across digital platform.

[00:02:00] Amy:  Excellent. And your role as board director, what are some of your responsibilities?

[00:02:04] Tricia: Yes. So I am independent board director and so as a board director, I’ve oversight over the company. And we meet regularly and I meet with the management team obviously periodically. And you know what I think the interesting role for me is that I get to meet with the head of D&I regularly.

So D&I has been at the forefront of how they think about the business and its priority in the business.

[00:02:31] Amy: I’m so glad you said that because my, my, usually my starter question is, why is inclusion so important at your company? And it sounds like you’re poised to speak to that. Why does a B2B company like Salify need to focus on inclusion?

[00:02:45] Tricia: Saksify its core values is a people first company. And when they founded the company, they really deliberately thought about how it’s going to make sure that its employees come first and all of its decisions. They value authenticity. They believe in the [00:03:00] power of human differences.

And they really believe that diverse perspectives will bring the best decisions. And so in all of the work that they do in fostering their culture, and actually it’s interesting. And this goes to their company value. They don’t call it DEI, they call it EDI, where equity comes first because the core of a successful program is bringing equity first.

So it’s really just at the core of their values and how they think about the strategic vision of the company.

[00:03:31] Amy: So you mentioned putting equity first. Why do you think that’s so important at the company?

[00:03:33] Tricia: No, because I think that companies tend to focus on diversity. They tend to focus on, let’s bring in more diverse employees to show good statistics.

But as all of us know that there’s three prongs: there’s bringing in the diverse. employees, there’s creating a culture of inclusion and there’s making sure that there’s equity across the board. And if we don’t [00:04:00] think about equity first, we may not really truly bring an inclusive culture to the company.

So thinking about compensation, thinking about benefit programs and how are we making sure that we’re thinking about equitable practices across the board for the company?

[00:04:19] Amy: So can you help us understand what are some practical ways that Salsify does this? Are there certain initiatives that they’ve launched?

Are there metrics in place? How are they ensuring that equity is brought to the forefront?

[00:04:31] Tricia: Yeah. I think, it starts with probably what most companies do. They start with unconscious bias training, ensuring that Employees and managers and leaders across the board are really thinking about unconscious bias and providing language and understanding where our blind spots are.

They’re investing in an EDI team with a head of a EDI and a programs manager and really creating budget so that this is not an afterthought, it’s something that’s included in their strategic vision. They’re also investing in pipeline. One of the things that they do that’s I [00:05:00] think is fabulous is they partner with an organization called Hack Diversity to expand the talent pool, and they recruit from there and they hire from there.

So really investing in pipeline to ensure that it’s bringing in excellent talent. And they really are investing in their ERGs. They are making sure that they have ERGs for all underrepresented identities, and they’re partnering them with executive sponsors to ensure that there’s visibility at the executive level of many of the issues that the that these ERGs may be facing.

[00:05:31] Amy: And what kind of results are you seeing from all these efforts? Because that’s a lot of, it’s a lot of work. There’s a lot of focus on this clearly and it’s a multi-pronged initiative. Are you seeing traction in these areas?

[00:05:42] Tricia: We are. The company just completed, it’s a second annual inclusion survey.

That’s another thing that they do, is they wanna ensure that they’re measuring. It’s not just Aspirational, but intentional in their D&I EDI strategy. So they do an annual survey. They’ve just completed their second annual [00:06:00] survey, which measures how they’re doing and how employees are feeling.

And they score very well. And so they continue to measure this, and they will over year. And they’ve also just issued their EDI report, so they’re really looking and making sure there’s transparency around their work. So that it’s not just talk that we’re looking at data and we’re looking to measure to see where we’re making our biggest changes.

And I think they’re really measuring it in a couple of different ways.

[00:06:28] Amy: And this is important to you, I’m guessing because you have come up through the tech industry as a Latina, and I know that you’ve had a focus on equity in your own career and that led you to write your book, embrace the Power of You.

Can you talk a little bit about why this book, why now?

[00:06:43] Tricia: Yeah, no, as you mentioned I’m a first-generation Latina professional. My mom is from El Salvador, my father’s from Ecuador. And I started my career and been the first and the fewer, the only in the room my entire career and really had to figure out how to [00:07:00] navigate the workplace and hit a lot of challenges along the way.

And now, as 25 years later, and I’m looking at back in my career just some of the lessons that I learned as being an “other” and wanna really help others that feel like that in the room. And given the tools and strategies to succeed, but also give managers and leaders a perspective of what it might feel like to be an “other.”

And so at the end of each chapter of my book, I have specific strategies of what can managers do to create inclusive environments for their employees. Because without, if we ask our employees to bring their authentic selves to work, we as leaders need to create cultures that are gonna embrace those employees and accept and embrace the different perspectives.

Making sure that they’re successful at the company.

[00:07:50] Amy: Something I think that a lot of companies overlook. When they promote someone into management, they may or may not give them management training, they might train them on some fundamentals of the job. But you [00:08:00] don’t turn, in my opinion,

you don’t turn a high potential employee into an inclusive leader just by changing their job title, giving them a bump in pay, and assigning some direct reports to them. And so what are some of the skills that you believe are essential for inclusive leadership people who are managing tech teams or other teams in the workplace?

[00:08:21] Tricia: Yeah, I think one is really examining your, your, where you came from. What, what lived experience are you bringing to the workplace, and what are your blind spots? Where may you not be seeing the differences and when those differences show up to. Oftentimes we say we want, we want different perspectives in the room.

And then when somebody chimes in with a different perspective, say, why are they always challenging me? Or why are they not going along with the crowd? So really thinking, we actually want those different perspectives. And one of the strategies, for example, I say is instead of. Making it hard for that person to constantly being the one [00:09:00] challenging,

you as a leader can go in and say, okay, we’ve heard a lot of opinions. I wanna hear something that’s opposite. What is different than what we’ve just been talking about. So it invites the group to bring in different perspectives rather than having that same person always being the one that’s bringing that diverse perspective.

And the same goes with creating cultures. Self-care, like mental health is another something that we as leaders are always thinking about. And instead of having the person that is seeking some balance, for example, in their career what as a leader, can you go in and say, “Hey, we’re gonna have no meeting Fridays for everybody” so that somebody doesn’t always have to be the one coming in and saying, I need a little bit more balance or boundaries.

So I think it’s thinking about what can we, as. Go into companies and think about how do we make this a little bit more inclusive for everybody and how can we take the first step rather than asking those that are feeling marginalized to take the first step always.

[00:09:55] Amy: I think it’s so important, this point that you bring up about normalizing [00:10:00] or operationalizing some of these things that people might.

Because a lot of times people, the people who need the most will be the most afraid to ask Yeah. Or will feel that they suffer the most for asking. . Whereas as a leader, it’s pretty low risk to say, yeah, you know what? Today in the meeting, we’re gonna set a timer. Everybody gets five minutes, nobody gets interrupted, go, right?

Today, Bill is gonna be the voice of dissent. And that’s Bill’s job is to be the voice of descent today. So that it’s not always, Tricia or it’s not always Amy. Exactly. And I think it’s those little things that make a big difference because then other people can fill that role, can feel what it feels like. But can also put themselves in someone else’s shoes along the way.

[00:10:43] Tricia: Oh, exactly. And I think that as leaders. We often forget. That it might, if we’re in part of the majority, we don’t realize how hard it might be for others. And I think storytelling is another component that I think is super [00:11:00] important.

I first told my story at a company meeting and was incredibly scared to talk about my ethnicity, my culture, where I came from. I really downplayed a lot of that in the workforce to succeed. There was a lot of fear, but then realizing that it actually made an impact on others that look like me or have similar lived experiences.

And having other leaders who have worked beside me, alongside of me for years, recognizing some of the challenges they may not see. Started to break down some of those barriers and started creating some empathy across the board from employees to managers, to leaders. And I think storytelling and storytelling programs within companies really help us understand what we may not see on a day-to-day basis.

[00:11:48] Amy: Talk a little bit more about this level of risk in storytelling and the fear, because a lot of times when we’re different in a, in an organization or on a team, we don’t want to talk about our difference because we don’t [00:12:00] wanna call attention to it. We feel like we’re putting a spotlight on how we’re othered.

But it sounds like being just a little bit brave in the right moment can make a huge difference. Can you talk a little bit more about that?

[00:12:09] Tricia: Yeah, that’s really the genesis of my entire book is, embrace the power of you. And it’s hard, just exactly like you said.

Because there have been messages all along our lives telling us that you may not be enough, you may not be good enough that, and so the fear is real. So I think one of the things I try to do in my book is really give people the tools that they need to succeed in telling their story. So finding people, mentors, community other places that’ll provide you the support that you are enough, that you, your story matters, that people are interested, that’s actually valuable and, and to the organization and to those around you.

And once you start building that confidence, then you get the courage to be a little bit more vulnerable and it doesn’t have to be huge. For me to get to that place [00:13:00] where I’ve talked in front of the company meeting, there were many steps before that where I slowly started telling my story first to safe places to friends, then to colleagues that felt safe.

Then to my manager. And so slowly building it and repeating that action, realizing that actually this is something that’s valuable and interesting gave me the courage to then tell my story in a broader perspective. And so I think it’s I say it’s small steps repeated often, and that can build the courage to tell your story.

[00:13:33] Amy: Were you worried at all that your story would be weaponized against you at work?

[00:13:35] Tricia: Yes. Yeah. Yes and no. I will say, I was the bravest in the sense that I probably would not have told my story in a different company culture. My company culture was very embracing of D&I and inclusivity. So as a core foundation, I knew that it was somewhat safe.

You definitely have to be aware of what kind of company [00:14:00] culture you’re in, because it definitely can be we weaponized against you. So I think one identifying is it a place that might embrace it, but despite even knowing that it was a place that was welcoming of diverse perspectives and inclusivity, there’s still that fear.

There’s 25 years of derogatory statements said about me, my culture, my people, over and over again, it, you internalize that, that way of thinking. And there’s a ton of fear that all bubbles up. So yes, but I wasn’t super brave because it was a very welcoming place.

[00:14:35] Amy: Yeah, that’s so important. And I think about when people share stories and I talk about this a lot too in my work. The quickest way to build trust across difference is storytelling. Absolutely. Absolutely. Stories build trust. Trust builds relationships and relationships. Make or break careers.

. And if we don’t start with storytelling, we don’t get anywhere. We don’t build the relationships we need.

[00:14:56] Tricia: And I think people don’t, may not realize. What’s [00:15:00] your story, what there may be, in the background of what you’ve had to overcome? And we all have, we’ve all have things that we’ve overcome and there’s a bond that can happen there as you start telling your stories.

We may not be of the same race or gender or sexual orientation, but we may bond over our economic situation or where are parents divorced or are we a parent? Through storytelling and through sharing a little bit of our, about of our lived experiences, there’s a bond that can happen between people.

[00:15:31] Amy: Yeah, I agree. And I think a lot of times when we connect to how somebody feels, yeah. And we think about, I’ve felt that way, maybe not for that reason. But I felt that way, and I know what that feeling feels like. We can connect on a feelings level even. We can’t connect on a beliefs level or we can’t connect on values, but we can connect on feelings and start to feel some empathy for one another about, oh, that’s a horrible feeling.

I felt that way. Exactly. In a completely different circumstance, so , I usually if people, if two people don’t have anything in common, I’m like, have you ever felt sad? Yes. Have you ever [00:16:00] felt sad? Yes. How did that feel? It was awful. Okay. You have that in common. You both don’t like feeling sad, so let’s start there.

We can’t even agree on ice cream, but we can agree that sad doesn’t feel so good and it’s slow, but it’s a start. I think sometimes when people feel like they don’t have any common ground, just rooting them in their own humanity.

[00:16:19] Tricia: No, I agree. It’s interesting. My, my husband’s a white man and, but he grew up in the south and so he had a strong accent before he moved to California.

He lived in California as a teenager, and so he had to change his accent: his accent as he, when he moved into this environment and feeling like that, even though it was a short period of time, but feeling that sense of being different, everyone’s making fun of his accent and all of that.

That, like you were saying, just that what that feels like to be different really resonates with him. And even now he. Looks for people that are still feel like others to make them feel welcome. And you wouldn’t have thought, he’s a [00:17:00] white guy, things aren’t easy, but he knows what it feels like.

So it’s empathy. Where did you feel like another in your life?

[00:17:06] Amy: And it, a lot of times it’s situational. It might be just for a moment or just for a day. But recognizing that some people go their whole careers that way. And if you expand on that horrible feeling that he had for a week or a month or a year, that makes a big difference in how people, how they work, how they show up and how much of themselves they share.

 So Tricia, I wanna thank you so much. Tell us where we can get the book.

[00:17:27] Tricia: It’s available on all all sites. But you can reach me at triciatimm.com and you can order the book there.

[00:17:35] Amy: Excellent. We’ll put the link on the website with the show notes and make sure that everybody gets a copy. I’ll try to find it on Amazon and link to it as well. So people can go right there and buy it. Thank you so much for your time today.

[00:17:45] Tricia: Oh, you’re welcome.

[00:17:47] Amy: For sharing your story and for sharing a little bit about Salsify with us.

[00:17:50] Tricia: Thank you, Amy. It’s a pleasure to be here.

[00:18:00] [outro]

[00:18:42] Amy: That’s it for this week’s episode of Including You. Join me next week when my guest will be Dr. Rosalyn Cohen from Associate Strategies.