e052. Inclusion Uncomplicated with Dr. Nika White

Including You Interview with Dr. Nika White

Full Interview Transcript

Voiceover Announcer:

This is Including You, the new series from Lead At Any level. Including You features stories from chief diversity officers and other executives who are creating inclusive cultures in their organizations. Our goal is to show what’s working in companies just like yours, to give you the tools you need to keep pushing for progress in your own workplace. We want to create belonging and opportunity for everyone, including you. And now here’s your host, Amy C. Waninger.

Amy C. Waninger:

Welcome back to Including You. I’m your host, Amy C. Waninger, the inclusion catalyst. My guest today is Dr. Nika White. Dr. White is the author of Inclusion Uncomplicated, and founder of Nika White Consulting. Her expertise is in growing intentional inclusionists so that organizations can create cultures of belonging to drive positive organizational change. Nika is a friend of mine. I am so excited to have her. Welcome, Nika, to including you.

Dr. Nika White:

Oh, thank you so much, Amy. I’m so glad to be reconnected and look forward to being in conversation with you and sharing your community.

Amy C. Waninger:

I am excited to catch up with you and find out all the amazing things you’ve been doing. And I know we’ve talked before about your career journey, I think even on my old podcast, on See It To Be It. And so I want to skip all that part, but let people know it’s out there if they want to find it. And talk about the work that you’re doing at Nika White Consulting and why this business, why now? And we’ll just go from there and right into the book. Sound good?

Dr. Nika White:

That sounds perfect. So I’ll give a little bit of background for those who may not be familiar with Nika White Consulting. We are a full service diversity, equity and inclusion boutique consultancy. We intersect the work of DEI with leadership and business, working with all types of clients, different industries, different sizes, different sectors, really helping them to integrate into their business frameworks, strategic diversity, intentional inclusion, and the lens of equity. And as you can imagine, Amy, what that looks like from client to client can vary based upon where those organizations may be and the continuum of DEI work, but ultimately we want to drive towards impact and not activity. That’s a real big focus for us.

We like to see sustainable change and we are a 100% remote work organization, which is interesting for some people because that’s not because of the pandemic, it’s because of, that’s just been our business model since inception. And so we just turned six on February 1 and we’re really enjoying the journey of partnering with some amazing clients and leaders who are just as passionate about this space as we are.

Amy C. Waninger:

Congratulations on six years in business. That is a big milestone.

Dr. Nika White:

It is a big milestone. I think the latest stat I heard was that businesses typically don’t make it to year three. So once you get past year three, you can breathe a little bit better, but it’s still challenging. But nonetheless, I’m glad to be at year six.

Amy C. Waninger:

I was going to say, I’m five years in, I’m not breathing any easier any day of the week, so you let me know how it goes this year.

Dr. Nika White:

Absolutely.

Amy C. Waninger:

So you said so much in there that I want to dig into and play with. The first thing you said was that your clients are at different stages of the DEI continuum. Can you talk a little bit about that? And I think it’s important for companies to recognize that there are folks who are just starting out. There are folks who are well down the path. There are folks who are very advanced. Companies and organizations and leaders need help at all those stages.

Dr. Nika White:

All stages. Yeah, I appreciate that, Amy. And that is a philosophy that we really take to heart. We pride ourselves in being equipped to meet clients and organizations where they are, whether they’re just starting at ground zero and they need a lot of support around what does this journey look like? How do we get the buy-in? How do we go about collecting data that can inform our path forward plan? And that’s important, but we also are well-equipped to help partner with clients who have already been at this journey for quite some time and they’re just looking to take the work to the next level. There’s always a next level. And so part of our mantra is we want to be able to be that effective DEI consultant partner to clients who are looking to effectively get to the next level, because the next level is going to vary from client to client, but it still works across all organizations. And so that’s important to us. Everyone has a starting point.

Amy C. Waninger:

Absolutely. And I think some folks get confused or misunderstand the continuum as once you’re maybe on level four, if you’re using a five tier capability maturity model, for example, when you’re at level four, it doesn’t mean you stop doing all the stuff in level zero through three. It means you have to do all that stuff and then all the level four stuff. So it’s an additive, it’s a cumulative effect.

Dr. Nika White:

Yes. And the thing about diversity, equity and inclusion is that it is very horizontal, so it’s not vertical. It really extends to every single area of operation, every department. And so I think that organizations that are really serious about having that impact that they can sustain, they are thinking very intentionally about what does next look like for us? Now that we’ve reached this point in the progress, what does next look like for us? And we love being a part of those conversations and those discussions with clients to help them determine that.

It reminds me, Amy, I recently wrote an article and it’s entitled When Is Enough? And the whole premise of it is that there’s never enough. There’s always something more, something greater, something different. But my hope is that when clients align with us, they gain that level of traction, of momentum, to want to go deeper, to want to go to the next level. And then with that, it gives them the courage to do it, it gives them the ingenuity to say, “Okay, what’s next? How can we leverage the great level of creativity and innovation within our organization even in the space of DEI to go to the next level?” And I love that.

Amy C. Waninger:

I do too. And I think you’re right. The work never ends because we’re constantly learning more. It’s like saying when does strategy end or when does marketing end or when does finance end? It doesn’t. This is part of your business forever and ever.

Dr. Nika White:

Absolutely.

Amy C. Waninger:

So tell me a little bit, I’m curious as to what you’re seeing in the world because we’ve seen a lot of change in the DEI consultancy space in the last, I’m going to say three to four years. I’ll tell you what I saw, you tell me if what you’re seeing is mirroring. I saw a little bit of momentum building early pre-pandemic. I saw interest drop off. Everybody decided they were going to cut their training budget, cut their DEI budget, get rid of folks, we’re working remote, we don’t need this belonging stuff anymore for about three months in 2020. Then George Floyd was murdered for all the world to see in broad daylight on all of our phones, televisions, computers, and in the collective imagination, collective trauma of the world, companies decided, “Hey, maybe we shouldn’t cut these DEI budgets. Maybe we need to bring stuff back.”

The pandemic loomed on and folks got a little bit of diversity fatigue and a little bit of Zoom fatigue around the pandemic and they started to slough off again. And now that we’re seeing some layoffs, and it’s interesting to me because right now we’re seeing layoffs in the tech sector and we’re seeing historically low unemployment nationwide. And so to me, those two things are going to even themselves out pretty quickly. But what are you seeing in this space in terms of company commitment right now, Q1 of 2023 as we’re recording this?

Dr. Nika White:

Amy, you were hitting the nail on the head with all that you described in terms of what you’re seeing. I’m seeing very much the same thing. I think that there’s been a heightened level of criticism on organizations that made those deep commitments and pledges after George Floyd’s murder and people are calling it as they see it. There’s a lot of performative DEI work that’s happening right now that really is frustrating the process and it’s hindering the progress, the true progress that we need to make. And then when you couple that with the looming recession, and I say that loosely because there’s a lot of folks whose belief is that’s just the media’s talking that up. It’s not really here. And I think there’s probably multiple arguments to be made, but we’re seeing a lot of people certainly be much more selective and slow to solidify opportunities where an investment in DEI is required because of the fear of the unknowns.

How is this recession, whether it is going to be a reality or not, going to impact us? That’s what those leaders are asking themselves. And so I think that the two together is really just creating this dynamic to where it’s not serving this space well, and those of us who are big champions of it, but my message to all of those who are in this camp with us, Amy, is that we can’t give up. We can’t grow weary. We have to take our breaks and step away so that we can be recharged and refueled. We can’t let up. We have to keep applying the pressure and keep allowing whatever influence we have to carry that weight. I was talking with members of my DEI mastermind group recently and we all were really just serving as support for each other and standing in solidarity and the conversation came up of are we carrying too much of the burden of the outcomes?

There’s a shared accountability in the work that we do. Not one singular person, regardless of the title or position, can really create that full change. It takes all of us and this work belongs to all of us. And so many of us concluded that we have to be okay with the seeds that we’re planting, knowing that some are going to fall on really fertile ground and they’re going to be nurture and they’re going to grow and they’re going to bloom and they’re going to produce some great outcomes.

And then there are going to be other times where we plant seeds and it’s not until maybe years later that someone else comes behind and they water and then someone else comes behind them and they water, that really then the outcome is produced or actualized. And so we have to divest ourselves, I think in many ways from feeling as though we are the singular solution. “We” meaning individual practitioners in this space. We are the singular solution for all of the systems change that needs to occur, because we’re not. And so I’m hoping that’s swaying some people who may be wearing the weight of this work on their shoulders for their organizations that they may be supporting in this capacity.

Amy C. Waninger:

I think that’s so important. I was having a similar conversation with a peer of mine and we were talking about what do you do with clients who are doing the work performatively? And the discussion led to when we show up, we’re not being performative. And if that lands with somebody who can make a change, then maybe that’s the spark that gets things moving. Maybe that’s the pivot point in that organization. And so we can’t give up, even if we’re frustrated around people’s intentions, even if we’re frustrated around progress, that we just have to keep going because if you’re pushing something heavy, every little nudge matters. It all adds up.

Dr. Nika White:

Yes, it does. One of the things that I’m seeing too is that I think sometimes we make the assumption that those who are not in the trenches really supporting this work in an active way, that they don’t care about the work or they see it as a distraction or they’re against diversity, equity and inclusion. But what I find is that it tends to be an issue of people not knowing how to engage effectively, which is what inspired in many ways, book number three, for me, Inclusion Uncomplicated. I was experiencing on a frequent basis clients who obviously they want to do this work because they reached out and they’re investing in the work, but they’re becoming really discouraged because they are like, it just feels so daunting. It feels like it’s just so much. Can we really make a difference? And if people feel defeated before they even take this first step, that is going to automatically compromise the outcome.

And so I really wanted to help bring to light the need to demystify the constructs of diversity, equity, and inclusion to help people to feel a bit more, I’m not saying just fully comfortable, but a bit more, what is the word here? Just like having a appetite of this can be done, maybe not by me, in and of myself, but it can be done and it can be accomplished. And I think that for some people who are sitting on the sidelines, it is because they are afraid to engage. They’re afraid of making mistakes, and we have to get over that. We have to choose courage over comfort, and we have to allow people to see this work as even though it is complex, it’s not being impossible. And that was important to me. That’s the premise of Inclusion Uncomplicated.

Amy C. Waninger:

I like this because it is complex, but it doesn’t have to be difficult for any one person. Everybody can pick up the piece that belongs to them and move that piece forward. Who did you write your book for? Who is the target audience of your book, Inclusion Uncomplicated?

Dr. Nika White:

Yeah. I love this question, Amy, and I have been answering this question by mostly communicating who the book is not for, so I’m going to start there. Also, Inclusion Uncomplicated, and the subtitle is, “A transformative guide to simplify DEI.” It is not for those individuals who have dug their heels in and have claimed this very permanent stake of, “DEI is useless. It is a distraction. It’s not needed. I’m going to continue to operate in the space of inferiority of certain dominant groups. I’m going to continue to be oblivious to the fact that oppression exists for marginalized communities. I’m going to continue to practice hatred, discrimination, bigotry.” I’m not talking to those individuals. And this is important because I feel like sometimes as practitioners, we can have the mindset that we can change every heart and every mind. I’m not one of those practitioners.

I would much rather my time to be spent on the people who are on the fence, not because they disagree with the work, but they don’t know how to engage in the work effectively. Or maybe those who are looking to go deeper as advocates of this work. Perhaps they are leading this work within their organizations in a small way or maybe even a large way, but there’s still a lot of room for growth in order to perfect their craft and their influence in that work. And so I want this to be a guide. I don’t want it to be a book that people will read from start to finish then place on the bookshelf to never revisit it again.

Rather, I want it to sit on their desk. I want people to dog-ear the pages. I want people to write in the margins. The book was really designed to be a tool that chapters in with critical reflection, micro learning activities for people to sit with what they’ve heard and to process that. What do I now do with this information? And I’m talking to those who want to go deeper and to who’ve been on the sidelines, want to just create that entryway for themselves.

Amy C. Waninger:

Yeah, I love your answer. And I call those folks the botherable middle, the people who once you show them that there’s a problem, they would be uncomfortable enough to move.

Dr. Nika White:

Yes. And I don’t make any claims at all to my readers that you’re going to fill just warm and fuzzy the whole entire time. I think that part of the growth is to be challenged a bit, to be stretched a bit, but I do it in a way to where my hope is that people will receive it as this is my ability to help buy into this notion of humanity and leaving no one behind. Leaving no one behind. And part of the premise of the book, it follows this metaphor of unraveling the knot. Just imagine this big ball of yarn and we know that it looks messy and it feels messy, and it can feel like there’s no way we can get this ball unraveled. And that’s how we view sometimes diversity, equity, and inclusion. But there are strategies just if we unravel that knot, there’s strategies that if we pool in certain places and we then work out the kinks here, we are then getting to a place to where it is unraveling.

And little by little, bit by bit, we’re becoming smarter, we’re becoming more effective, we’re becoming more compassionate, we’re becoming more open, and all of those things are creating opportunities for growth in each of us and when we grow and we can manage and lead ourselves, we can manage and lead others. Because this book is not just for those who carry the title of the chief diversity officer, director, or even a HR professional because again, this work belongs to all of us. And so no matter what your title is, if you want to be on the right side of being human-centered and doing human-centered work, then this book is for you.

Amy C. Waninger:

I think this is important because like you said, nobody can afford to sit this one out. Our workforce is changing, our workforce demographics are changing, our market demographics are changing. There is no way to be sustainable in business or in community service non-for-profit spaces, there is no way to be sustainable in government or to be sustainable in education if you’re not adapting and growing alongside these changes in demographics, these changes in expectations, the changes of young people entering the workforce and entering the consumer markets. There is no room for people who can’t get on board with this because they’re just going to slow progress down. They’re going to slow sustainability and revenue and growth down. And we need everybody in this work.

Dr. Nika White:

Everybody, Amy, everybody. One of my biggest points of frustration in doing this work is when I encounter individuals, particularly leaders in organizations that are influencing all the other stakeholders, that they fail to keep in mind the importance of endurance, that stick-to-it-ness. I think that we are so accustomed to having quick, simple solutions, checking boxes, that we almost feel like, okay, I’m going to throw this amount of money and this amount of time, and then at that point, everything needs to be accomplished. And then if it’s not, I am negating that this was even a valuable use of our time and our resources.

And so my hope is that we can get back to a place of not seeing this as a singular type of checkbox thing, but we endure the process. We anticipate for the hurdles and the obstacles because they’re there. Our world is complex, again. People are people, and there’s so much difference in people, and so how can we help encourage that stick-to-it-ness so that endurance that I believe is needed for us to really, truly actualize a world where we’re all centered on humanity and full opportunity for success for everyone, and we’re closing the inequity gap that exists right now for so many that are part of these marginalized communities. So that’s my hope.

Amy C. Waninger:

If anyone can do it, Dr. White, it is you. And it is you with all of us beside you, behind you and with you. I am so honored to have you here sharing your work and sharing your new book Inclusion Uncomplicated with my audience. Is there anything you’d like to leave folks with and is the book currently available or is it coming out soon?

Dr. Nika White:

No, the book is available. People can get it on Amazon, Barnes and Noble, Target, wherever you like to, whatever retailer you like to visit to purchase your books, and I would love to be in conversation with anyone that finds themselves reading the book and maybe processing what you’re reading. And I’m totally up for any type of speaking engagements where I can come and share with organizations to just deepen the learning, even beyond the words on pages of the book. And so I really look forward to those opportunities.

Amy C. Waninger:

Fantastic. I hope that my viewers and my listeners are tuning in. I will put the link to the book in the show notes, and I encourage everyone to pick up their copy of Inclusion Uncomplicated right away and reach out to Dr. White if you have questions or opportunities for further exploration.

Dr. Nika White:

Amy, I’m so grateful for this opportunity. I’m so glad we had a chance to reconnect too, and I completely value the work that you’re doing also in this space. As you said, it takes all of us and so it’s always a treat for me to connect with other champions and advocates of this work.

Amy C. Waninger:

Thank you so much. That means the world to me.

Voiceover Announcer:

If you’ve enjoyed this episode, follow Lead At Any Level on LinkedIn and YouTube, then join us for Including You video Simcast every Thursday at noon Eastern. Including You can also be enjoyed each week as part of the Living Corporate Audio podcast series available on all major podcast platforms. Learn more at livingcorporate.com. Including You is brought to you in part by Lead At Any Level, a boutique training and consulting firm improving employee engagement and retention for companies that promote from within. Lead At Any Level: leaders can be anywhere and should be everywhere. Learn more at lead@anylevel.com. Lead At Any Level in its logo are registered trademarks of Lead At Any Level LLC. The views and opinions of guests on our show do not necessarily reflect in the positions of Lead At Any Level, Living Corporate or the sponsors of Including You.

Amy C. Waninger:

That’s it for this week’s episode of Including You. Be sure to join me next week when my guests will be Eric Conway and Nina Rodriguez from Solid Core.