e054. Holistic Admissions with Rachel Muredzwa

Including You Interview with Rachel Muredzwa

Full Interview Transcript

Voiceover Announcer:

This is Including You, the new series from Lead at Any Level. Including You features stories from chief diversity officers and other executives who are creating inclusive cultures in their organizations. Our goal is to show what’s working in companies just like yours, to give you the tools you need to keep pushing for progress in your own workplace. We want to create belonging and opportunity for everyone, including you. Now, here’s your host, Amy C. Waninger.

Amy C. Waninger:

Welcome back to Including You. I’m your host, Amy C. Waninger. This week, my guest is Dr. Rachel Muredzwa, MSW. She is the director of equity and inclusion of The Ohio State University College of Nursing. The university aims to create unrivaled experiences that bring together expertise, ideas, and resources that improve communities locally and globally. If The Ohio State University College of Nursing sounds familiar to you, it’s because you’ve been watching or listening to the show for a while, and you may recall that Dr. Angela Alston from the same school was my guest on episode 15, way back in whenever episode 15 was. Maybe, I don’t know, October? I’m so excited to welcome Dr. Alston’s colleague, Rachel, to the show. Welcome, Rachel.

Rachel Muredzwa:

Thank you so much for having me, Amy. Thank you. Thank you.

Amy C. Waninger:

I am so excited to talk to you and get your perspective on the amazing things going on in the OSU School of Nursing. Let’s start with… because it’s been a little bit since I talked to your colleague. Let’s start with why, from your perspective, is inclusion such an important component of the curriculum and the staffing and the work being done at the OSU College of Nursing?

Rachel Muredzwa:

That’s a great question. I think nurses are, obviously… Maybe not obviously, but we like to brag, that they’re the most trusted profession, year after year, in public opinion polling, and it’s because of the patient care that they provide. I think inclusion, as it relates to patient care, is the most vital thing to spotlight here. Nurses interact with patients from tremendously diverse backgrounds, people who have diversities in visible and invisible ways. I think that having culturally competent and culturally curious nurses is really essential for the workforce of nursing today, given the demographics of the patient populations.

Here in Central Ohio, we’re blessed to have tremendous diversity in terms of race, ethnicity, national origin, and language, just to name a few. We’re, I think, very particularly placed to make a great impact on health equity, so the patient care piece is here. If our students are really learning from each other with their own diversities, they’re encouraged through the curricula to stay curious and to always be a continuing learner, and obviously are getting the clinical practice that they need and are able to navigate that very successfully, either through caring for diverse populations or maybe even having diversities themselves that end up being essential to the work environment, I think that’s really what’s important.

Obviously, we also need the innovation that comes from people from all backgrounds feeling free to contribute their ideas in a place that has high psychological safety and that is well-resourced, as well. I think that having that inclusion at the forefront really makes us a better institution, just because it makes us better humans. That’s really what I see, to hopefully give you the Cliff Notes version of inclusion in a College of Nursing like ours.

Amy C. Waninger:

Yeah, no, I think it’s great. I think that, when you talk about nursing being the most trusted profession, and I’ve seen these studies, because I did some work with someone who does work with nurses, and she does deep listening work with nurses, and so much of not just what hospitals do and how hospitals run and how they function are based on the nursing staff, and so much of the patient experience is based on the nursing staff, but also, a lot of people don’t know this, the way hospitals get paid is a lot of times based on how well did the nurse listen to the patient? How much of a connection did the nurse make with the patient? Did the nurse make the patient feel comfortable and welcome?

Rachel Muredzwa:

Yeah, having access to students… I work with students at graduate and undergraduate levels, and I really get to see how quickly they get exposed to the clinical skillsets of the working nurses that they are with in their healthcare teams, obviously other professionals, too. It’s very interdisciplinary. It’s just so remarkable to watch them develop really in leaps and bounds because that’s the pace that they have to move at in order to be ready to be a registered nurse themselves in short order. It’s absolutely essential that we have folks who are there, always listening and learning and filling in gaps in knowledge for the rest of the healthcare team.

I’d say, in maybe even a biased way, that nurses and social workers are probably folks who spend some of the most time with patients, especially in some critical care settings. Having folks who are just very comfortable with their fellow human beings and being nurses, too, I think is just… It’s really just good business, I mean, to your point about billable services and things of that nature, and just also avoiding things like unfortunate outcomes. We really have folks’ lives in our hands in the healthcare professions.

Amy C. Waninger:

Absolutely, and the notion that not everybody goes in for medical treatment or to a medical practice or to seek medical help under the same conditions or with the same knowledge or with the same access or with the same experience or history or trust level that others might go with, so I think that it’s really important that nurses from all backgrounds understand that, even within the most trusted profession, there’s still people who will reserve trust-

Rachel Muredzwa:

That’s right.

Amy C. Waninger:

And may not give you the whole story or may worry that they’re not being heard.

Rachel Muredzwa:

Absolutely, and there’s obviously historical basis for a lot of maybe population level mistrust, or specific populations. We, I think, too, just have the class differential, if we’re talking about different class experiences and how they inform a comfort with even just engaging with institutions, as a whole. The access issues are huge. We could spend hours just dissecting the ways in which that provides… I think it just provides so much unnecessary attention in the system, when people can’t even come for care. Once they’re there, things are cost prohibitive, and there’s only so much that our frontline staff can do. They can definitely educated. They can comfort. But it’s really a systems-wide approach that we find is required for health equity to be delivered.

Honestly, I think that nurses are well positioned, and a lot of other frontline service folks are, too, to being able to push policy. That’s one of my favorite things I like to think about regarding true inclusion, because when you can make these macro level rules, then you can… and you have resources to back those policies, you can really make a sea change across a profession like nursing.

Amy C. Waninger:

Let’s talk about that a little bit. What are some of the policy changes that you or that your organization or that your nurses are seeking to enact or have enacted that you feel like have really moved the needle, so to speak? I guess, move the needle is a little bit different in nursing context than everywhere else, because when people think of needles and nursing, it’s a little bit different, but that have really gained some traction or led to more equitable outcomes, in your opinion, or your experience.

Rachel Muredzwa:

I should probably maybe recenter on my wheelhouse, given that diversity, equity, and inclusion is its own just multiverse of policy opportunities. The narrow focus, perhaps, is because I’m rather proud of some of the accomplishments that not only our institution, but I think a lot of other nursing education spaces, have made in recent years around holistic admissions and being able to reduce the barriers to entry for some folks who maybe unnecessarily were dissuaded from applying to colleges of nursing because of the heavy focus on grades and the heavy focus on being just a rockstar in terms of academic performance.

It’s no secret that we, as well as some other competitors and friends are a selective college of nursing, and so we really wanted to be able, several years ago, to make sure that we’ve got an admissions policy that’s going to be able to be more welcoming, and honestly, just be more responsive to the needs of spaces where working nurses would be so valuable, so we’re really looking… We’re looking for well-rounded people. We’re looking for leaders, so let’s incentivize those folks to actually become a part of the workforce by valuing that, by asking about that, by having interview processes and personal statements or essays and things of that nature that contribute to a holistic assessment of an applicant, whether they are a traditionally aged graduating high school student, or whether there’s someone coming into one of our master’s level graduate entry type programs. They’ve gotten a whole other bachelor’s and maybe other advanced degrees in some other field, and then they’re saying, “You know what? Nursing is for me, so here I come to The Ohio State University College of Nursing.” I think that’s a tremendous necessity these days of everyone have a holistic admissions process.

I think it’s also really crucial to examine whether or not… I’d say institutions of higher learning are, in their administrative heart and soul, aware of all the cost barriers to their students persisting because we can do all the sort of pomp and circumstance of welcoming students to our wonderful colleges and universities and doing a great job on recruitment, but it’s also about retention, so having good retention services, having a good finger on the pulse, to help your pun, but having a good sense of how our students are doing every step of the way, I think that’s very much my… I’m very interested in building capacity when it comes to those kind of student supports.

Yeah, so I think the policies that really involve welcoming people in, helping them be successful, and then we can get them out there into the workforce. They can do whatever they want, obviously. If we’ve taken great care of them while they’ve been students with us, these are our future sometimes congressional representatives. There’s plenty of nurses right now who are involved in shaping legislation across the nation at state and federal levels. I think that’s where I would say things can keep developing strength and momentum.

Amy C. Waninger:

I’m really interested in this issue of holistic admissions and really nurturing the nurses through the program, because we’re seeing, nationwide, a nursing shortage. We’re seeing people leave the profession in droves because of the pandemic and all of the challenges that have come with and followed in the wake of the more acute pain of the pandemic. Now it’s like there’s some lingering just economic and social forces that are working against women of color in particular, Black women especially. At the epicenter of all of that is nursing as a profession, where nurses have seen the most hostility, the most stress, the most burnout in the last few years. This notion of getting people in and retaining them in the program so that we can fill some of these positions where people have either left or retired or need a break, I think, is just… It’s not only critical for the school, but it’s really critical for the infrastructure of our country.

Rachel Muredzwa:

I think so. Yeah, if we took a really sober look at the lived experiences of nurses, day in and day out, I can say for myself like they are some of the strongest human beings that I’ve ever encountered because of how they necessarily have to be giving and giving and giving and giving for such even long periods of time. Let’s just talk about time and effort in terms of shift length.

I think that when we, perhaps with a maybe a bit of a futuristic lens, maybe, but if we, with a futuristic lens, can look at the next, let’s say, 30 years, because that’s the kind of length of career that some of the nurses who are leaving because everything just came to such a head with the pandemic and other tremendous stressors on our society, on our globe as a whole… If we’re talking about, let’s look to the future and see what kind of health care we really want to be sustainable for the next 30 years or so, it’s that we’re going to have to do a better job of caring for the hopes and dreams of middle schoolers and high school students, who think that they can go out there and be helpful. They maybe are seeing people in the world who need health care. They maybe, themselves, are experiencing family health issues. They may have health concerns of their own. They may be precociously brilliant, like a lot of the young people that I get to meet around the city of Columbus, in thinking about ways to change the world for the better.

Those of us, who right now are sitting in decision-making spaces, my office included, as Dr. Alston and I think about the work, we really have to build a world that they’re going to succeed in, because they’re not at the point where they’re administrators for recruitment and retention, so who else is going to do it? I think that right now is such a great… It’s such a great opportunity. Sometimes crisis leads to opportunity, and that’s what we have right now. That’s a huge reason why, when things started opening up again after sort of the worst of the pandemic, definitely, at post-quarantine and lockdown, my focus really was on expanding our partnerships with local high schools because, in many ways, there was a bit of an educational equity fallout that came from organizations not being able to interact with young people as much as they would like to for career development and professional development, or just helping the kids dream into a space that they maybe didn’t know they had access to.

The Ohio State University continues to be, obviously, a major anchor institution within Central Ohio, but we have amazing young people just right on our borders. We have folks who are right off campus, who are being prepared in excellent STEM education and so forth. These are from our public schools. Yeah, I think that there’s such a value right now to really taking, maybe, four deep breaths and saying, “What can we do to invest in the capacity for the near future?” We can look at the numbers and see. We can forecast how many folks are potentially going to just be retiring. It’s not about the burnout and the pandemic-related fallout. It’s also just about the natural process of generational turnover. We’re just at a really critical point to make it so that those maybe graduating eighth graders, those are going to be our nurses in the very near future.

We can train a wonderful Buckeye nurse in four years at Ohio State. We took an 18-year-old to a 22-year-old, and they’re ready to go, so this is… Everything is now, right now, for us to build a future that we want for our healthcare system, especially for our nurses.

Amy C. Waninger:

What kind of results are you seeing as a result of your policy shifts around admissions and retention? Are you seeing increased retention rates? Are you seeing an explosion of applications? What does that look like, in terms of impact and results?

Rachel Muredzwa:

Oh, well, in terms of applications, I don’t know that we’ll, in the near future, ever have an issue with just the amount of folks who are interested in nursing. We, like many other schools, have a tremendous number of folks who come to us each year wanting to at least get into our BSN program, which is the one I’m most familiar with, our bachelor of science in nursing.

I think an immediate shift that’s happened, due to the normalization, acceptance, and operationalization of a holistic admissions process is that we, within our own college, have an expanded community of folks who review the students. It’s faculty, which is traditional and expected and very essential for maintaining the level of know-how, in terms of what kind of nurses we want to see in our cohorts each year, and there’s also staff.

That, to me, has been a great, inclusive effort, to incorporating the diverse perspectives of folks who, like myself, are not working nurses and never have been, but who are very much… They can give you the healthcare consumer perspective and have, obviously, worked around these students and also have supported faculty and collaborated with faculty enough to know some of the ropes, and really just the kind of students that we’re looking for, again, like those well-rounded, excellent students, in terms of their people skills, and their ability to get those grades to be able to be consistently helpful and resilient under challenging circumstances and things of that nature.

I think that’s been really nice to see, that us having holistic admissions required quite a bit of an all hands or more hands on deck, if you will. I do think that there are shifts in the number of minoritized students that we’re seeing, year to year. It’s still a relatively recent system that we’ve implemented, and we’re always involved in quality improvement of it, so I’m thinking trends are giving me a sense of optimism. We do still have very much… We do very much have the constraint of just the class size, and that’s understandable relief for the fact that we’re not just adding on seats, and there’s more sections of Sociology 101 that they can take. It’s that we are placing students, quite early in their nursing education, in clinical placements, and so there’s a lot of interlocking pieces that make it more than just a notion to just say, “Let’s just admit more nurses.” We’re really trying to just build the class that we have. We’re trying to diversify within a constraint, and we’ve gotten a long way to getting a good process going.

I think, too, that it’s helped normalize the number of… It’s actually increased the number of people who are confident and feeling, I would say, people who are feeling capable of picking up a mantle of DEI when they need to. It’s not just the small group of folks who might be interested in making sure the process works and like if we can get all the forms in and look at all the spreadsheets and make sure we are doing the admissions process well, in terms of just the mechanics of project management. It’s more that it’s the culture of talking about diversity, and people realizing their own implicit bias limitations, because we all have them. Anyone who has cognition enough to be absorbing information about the world around you, as it pertains to yourself and other human beings, has implicit bias. These are Rachel Muredzwa’s unfiltered bias facts and opinions today, but I think that it’s really the case that we, through conversations over and over again, have unburdened ourselves of the illusion that we just automatically are great, and all people are welcome, and everything’s great, and we don’t have any reason to judge anyone.

It’s, no, let’s do the necessary deep and sometimes, oftentimes… Really, if it’s not uncomfortable work, I don’t know that we’re doing it right, the uncomfortable work of delving into bias and delving into implicit bias, and the neuroscience behind it, the evolutionary basis for it, and say, “Let’s retrain our brains. Let’s, us, as a community, consider perhaps some opportunity in engaging and admitting students, who are not fitting what our previous bias has said, in terms of what makes a good nurse.” It’s really exciting.

Amy C. Waninger:

Yeah. When you talk about expanding the pool of people who are reviewing and discussing applications, one of the tools, or one of the tips that I always give my clients when they’re talking about hiring is expand your selection team, because the more narrow your selection team, the more bias is going to creep into those decisions, and no one will notice because, likely, you’re going to share the same biases, and so those assumptions will be taking us back, but when you start to pull in people from different departments or people with different lived experience or people with a different educational background or just whatever the differences are in that group, as many diverse viewpoints as possible, then people can say, “I don’t see it that way. I have a different perspective on that. What if we thought about it this way?” Then a discussion happens, where a decision would’ve been made without even recognizing the decision had been made before. Now we can have a discussion and make an informed decision, right?

Rachel Muredzwa:

That’s right. That’s right, absolutely. Yeah, if there’s 12 people just like me, and we’re all part of a committee, and we’re primarily thinking about the populations that look like us, sound like us, come from where we come from, and we happen to have even a majoritized experience, so it’s not just that we’re niche minoritized folks, who are like, “Whew, okay, here we are. We’re really going to focus.”

If we have the majoritized experience, and obviously talking about an alternate universe than what I currently experience here in Central Ohio, but just for the sake of the rough analogy, then there’s just such an opportunity for me to just be subtly and explicitly a fan of anyone who reminds me of myself. Or we can all look around the table and say, “Hey, we’re just reading the same applications, and don’t we love these applicants? We just do. There’s just something about them.” That’s the process, the process saying, “What is it? What is the something about them? Because it is something.” We need to start putting names to it. We need to talk about affirmation bias. We need to talk about halo effect. We need to unpack all of this, and we do. That’s part of the… Even the training process for our selection committee is not just come one, come all. It’s come one, come all, get some training, and then we’ll do some practice, and we’ll really get down to the work of even keeping each other accountable.

I think that’s one of the great things I’ve enjoyed about the community that I’m in here, the College of Nursing, is that, when it comes down to it, we can actually talk about tough things, and we can disagree, and we can then learn from each other, and then also say, “I see what you were saying now. I have shifted my perspective.” Like, “What? How refreshing,” but that’s because it’s an inclusive environment and, frankly, there are people who have been on healthcare teams for a long time, in matters of life and death, and they’re not shy to speak up, because if it’s just that serious, we have to talk about this.

Amy C. Waninger:

And in nursing, it is a matter of life and death sometimes.

Rachel Muredzwa:

It is. Yes, it is.

Amy C. Waninger:

In a lot of professions, they can’t say that. If we’re building software, accounting software, or we’re building widgets, a lot of times, people get really wrapped up in their jobs, and they feel like the pressure is high, but nurses really are making life and death decisions about who gets seen, who gets treated first. How do you triage? Who do you run to first, if two people are calling for help? These can be, very quickly, life and death decisions, so I think cultivating nurses in an environment where people are able to have difficult conversations, people are able to examine and pull apart and reconfigure and realign, is critical to having nurses who can do that once they graduate.

Rachel Muredzwa:

Yeah, absolutely. It’s just a communication skillset that works for a lot of things, and it’s the same in quite a few helping professions that, especially ones that operate in crisis settings. I’ve learned a lot from people who do hostage negotiation even. It’s like, how do you talk to people when all the emotions are heightened, people are feeling defensive, and there’s just a lot of tension and stress and an overwhelm at times, too? I think that’s the thing that I’m just intrigued by, interested by. I think any great leader that I respect has a tremendous ability to communicate about tough things right when it’s happening, live, right now. We are in a situation. Let’s talk about this and say what it really is, and we can get to a feeling of relief after we do what we need to do right now.

I think that’s important to actually have this, again, the psychological safety to speak up, speak one’s mind, and also to feel like, when I speak my mind, it’s very likely that I’ll actually be heard. People may, indeed, reflect what I said, to me, through their own synthesis and acknowledgments. It’s vital. I think this is what’s part of building a truly inclusive, dare I say multicultural, cosmopolitan, eclectic, even future-focused society? We can do it in [inaudible 00:25:26] conversations and in committee meetings.

Amy C. Waninger:

Yeah, absolutely. It also occurs to me, when nurses are talking to patients, it’s when patients are their most vulnerable.

Rachel Muredzwa:

Yeah.

Amy C. Waninger:

Because it’s not just, and I get really wound up about this… I’m sorry, but-

Rachel Muredzwa:

Oh, no problem.

Amy C. Waninger:

When I go in, I’m an educated person, right?

Rachel Muredzwa:

Yeah.

Amy C. Waninger:

When I go to a doctor, there is, all other things being equal, if I went into a woman, a White woman doctor with a White woman nurse, all other things being equal, I’m still at a disadvantage because there’s a knowledge gap. Then you add to that that there’s usually some social distance between me and the people treating me, or between a provider and a patient. Then, like in the case of nurses, let’s not forget that a lot of times when we’re talking to nurses, we’re pretty much naked, literally.

Rachel Muredzwa:

Yeah, right. Right.

Amy C. Waninger:

You’re in a thin hospital gown. You’re exposed, like physically you’re exposed and psychologically you’re exposed, and emotionally you’re exposed. Having people who can have difficult conversations, but make you feel like it’s an easy conversation-

Rachel Muredzwa:

That’s right.

Amy C. Waninger:

Is so critical.

Rachel Muredzwa:

Absolutely.

Amy C. Waninger:

Because a patient who is in crisis, who feels vulnerable, who feels like an outsider, who doesn’t know what’s going on, needs to have things explained, all of that is handled by a culturally competent, caring nurse.

Rachel Muredzwa:

That’s right. Yeah, I like to say all the time to students, most students who I speak with, like we’re they, we as helping professionals, they as nurses, are often meeting people on one of the worst days in their life. I don’t know if folks consider going to the hospital to be recreational or something that they planned to do for fun. I’ve seen it, experienced it myself as, this is not a good day, and I’m not having a good time. Maybe there’s some preventative care that’s being done, let’s say, in some clinic settings and things of that nature. Maybe there’s Some wellness coaching. It’s not just…It’s not one reason, one mood only, but the students nod their heads when I say that.

They know what it is to be on the floor and be with all the nurses and just see the patients and to be working with the other folks on the healthcare team, the physicians, the rehab… I mean it’s just, the social workers, people who were just wheeling them around, patient care associates, and things like that. They know they’re not meeting bright, shiny, smiling, doing-cartwheels-down-the-hallway, happy people.

If we’re meeting people on their worst day, then what is it that we are going to do, be prepared to do, as human beings to comfort that person, inform that person, and also be exquisitely patient with that person, because most science that I understand, just from the implicit bias side of things is that we will have folks, who are moving very fast in a healthcare setting. They have so many patients. They are, themselves, tired and hungry, maybe frustrated. They’ve already been yelled at a couple times that day, whatever the case is. If they’re not monitoring and caring for their own communication abilities, the shortcuts in their brain that say, “I’m completely overwhelmed and under threat,” are going to quickly move through patient care. It’s going to end up being patient care in vocations, because it’s just not… It’s not their best.

I think, when we focus on training and implicit bias, in implicit bias litigation, really asking people to be mindful, to take their time. To take their time even when there’s no time, to just simply take a breath…

Amy C. Waninger:

Go ahead, Rachel.

Rachel Muredzwa:

Okay. I think that there can be so much done to just calm down the mind, when you can just take a breath, and you can be walking through a frantic hospital floor. You can be potentially onto your next crisis, but to just be able to deescalate the body enough for the mind to think more clearly. I think it’s tremendously important. It’s one of the things we focus on here at the College of Nursing, around wellness and mindfulness and being able to take care of one’s body throughout the day. Folks who have access to standing for some time, like nurses, they should really take care of their entire selves, and so I think that’s another really significant part of probably just preventing burnout throughout one’s career is just personal wellness habits, both mental, physical, emotional, and social… not both, but inclusive of all of those arenas.

Amy C. Waninger:

I’m sure that starts in school, because there’s a lot of pressure in school to perform, and there’s a lot of pressure if you’re working your way through school, especially, which a lot of us have to do, or taking on debt, or dealing with family allegations even during school. There’s a lot of it needs to be built into that process, as well, to retain the nurses in the program to begin with, I would imagine.

Rachel Muredzwa:

Absolutely. Yeah, it’s that the program is so rigorous. It’s not different from many other professional preparation programs that ask a lot of someone’s body, mind, and spirit. We definitely see, even within our student populations, that we have to mitigate burnout, because we have students sometimes who, let’s say, come from backgrounds and financial circumstances where they can’t just only do school.

I think, as student support staff, we need to think of really creative ways to give them stress relief opportunities. I know I have colleagues in counseling spaces and in, I want to say, the student affairs side of things, even within our college, who make sure that we’re doing things like bringing in therapy dogs and having a de-stressing session, or not distressing, but we’ll bring in things like stress relief sessions. We might have some coloring pages or some snacks available at midterms or finals and things of that nature. I think that’s just… It’s, I think, just treating people like the full humans that they are even. We don’t necessarily even have a big, long, deep conversation about it, but we’re available for that, to just say, “Isn’t it nice that someone just thought to give you some snacks? Isn’t it nice that we just thought to put something festive or novel in your environment each day, where you’re not just going from, ping-ponging from class to clinical to anything else that you have going on in your life?”

Yeah, I think wellness has to be part of a more inclusive culture, because we’re really… We don’t know what people have on their minds, who they are thinking of, in addition to all the things we’re asking of them, what their outside of school life is. That can be at the very onset of college. It can also be all the way through folks completing their doctorates in nursing practice. It just doesn’t stop. I don’t know if it’s strange news to deliver that nursing is not an easy path to navigate. This is, it’s not a simple profession.

Amy C. Waninger:

Rachel, I want to thank you so much for sharing your time and your expertise and your thoughts and your insights and your world according to Rachel with us, because I think it’s… Again, I think it’s so important to have multiple perspectives even within the Office of Diversity and Inclusion within the College of Nursing, because it’s all those different perspectives that really bring the ideas together that need to bubble to the top, and that, I’m sure, make your program exceptional.

Rachel Muredzwa:

Oh, I really appreciate that, Amy. It’s been lovely to talk with you, and to just share some of my thoughts about the work thus far.

Amy C. Waninger:

Thank you.

Voiceover Announcer:

If you’ve enjoyed this episode, follow Lead at Any Level on LinkedIn and YouTube, then join us for Including You video simulcast every Thursday at noon Eastern. Including You can also be enjoyed each week as part of the Living Corporate audio podcast series, available on all major podcast platforms. Learn more at living-corporate.com. Including You is brought to you, in part, by Lead at Any Level, a boutique training and consulting firm, improving employee engagement and retention for companies that promote from within. Lead at Any Level, leaders can be anywhere and should be everywhere. Learn more at leadatanylevel.com.

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Amy C. Waninger:

That’s it for this week’s episode of Including You. Be sure to join me next week, when my guest will be Jewel Love from Black Executive Men.