e056. Start with a Plan with Dr. Mary “MJ” McConner

Including You Interview with /Guest/

Full Interview Transcript

Voiceover Announcer:

This is Including You. The new series from Lead At Any Level. Including You features stories from chief diversity officers and other executives who are creating inclusive cultures in their organizations. Our goal is to show what’s working in companies just like yours. To give you the tools you need to keep pushing for progress in your own workplace. We want to create belonging and opportunity for everyone, including you. And now here’s your host, Amy C. Waninger.

Amy C. Waninger:

Welcome back to Including You. I’m your host, Amy C. Waninger, the Inclusion Catalyst. My guest today is Dr. Mary “MJ” McConner. She’s the founder and principal consultant of Inclusive Excellence Consulting. A people-centered consulting firm committed to providing tailored strategies, resources, training, and professional development opportunities to enable organizations to incorporate diversity, equity, and inclusion into their core organizational functions. This is a boutique consulting firm, Dr. Mary works alone and with partners, and I am so excited to have her on the show today. Dr. MJ, welcome.

Dr. Mary “MJ” McConner:

Thank you so much, Amy. I have to tell you, I’m super excited as well. I’m a big fan of Including You, and just the work you do in general. I love watching you on LinkedIn … not watching you, but watching the content that you upload to LinkedIn. Because I find it to be very informative. So glad to be here. Thank you for having me.

Amy C. Waninger:

That is so sweet of you. Thank you. As we’ve discussed before, it’s hard to know if when you’re contributing to a space as big and as complex as diversity, equity and inclusion, it’s sometimes difficult to know, do my contributions matter? Does anybody find this valuable? I was just talking into the void. So thank you so much for that. I appreciate it.

And I’m so glad to have you here because you have some very unique offerings and some very unique perspectives that you work with your clients on and to get results for your clients. And I wanted to just start with, why start your own firm? Why start your own DEI firm? Tell me a little bit about that journey for you.

Dr. Mary “MJ” McConner:

I get that question quite a bit like, oh, that’s brave to go out on your own and start a business. And especially a consulting firm in diversity, equity, and inclusion. But I’ll talk a little bit about my background and why it felt like such a natural transition for me. So I actually used to work in higher education, I still had a part-time adjunct position. But I was a full-time administrator and for most of my higher ed career, I worked in either international education, multicultural student services and diversity, equity and inclusion.

So I had already been doing the work. And my last role, I was actually a Vice President for diversity, equity and inclusion. And I reached a point where I was like, I love working in higher education, but I also love working with other organization types. And I love doing this work with different partners. And I was like, I’m going to go the consulting route. I’m going to give this a try. And it was very brave of me, especially considering I’d never owned and operated a business before. Because it’s one thing to be a practitioner, but it’s another thing to be a CEO and run a business, an entrepreneur. Yeah, there’s been a bit of a learning curve, but I wouldn’t change it for the world. I just love the opportunity to work with different organizations across the nation.

Amy C. Waninger:

It’s so true. Being an entrepreneur is the scariest, most challenging, most fun thing in the world. For those of us who love to learn every day, love to learn something new, it’s the best job ever because there’s always something new to learn. The downside is, there’s always something new to learn. And even if that’s what energizes you, sometimes it can be exhausting. But tell me a little bit about the kinds of clients you work with. Do you specialize in a particular industry with a particular size of business? What’s your profile that you’re looking for in your ideal clients?

Dr. Mary “MJ” McConner:

So I do work with a range of clients. So I’ve worked with everyone from professional associations to universities and colleges, which I tend to do most of my work with universities and colleges because I have that background. But I’ve also worked with some nonprofit partners, as well. Because we’re a smaller boutique firm, we do prefer smaller to medium-sized organizations. As much as I would love to work with a big corporate client, let’s just say it’s a bandwidth thing in terms of what all we’re able to offer and we recognize that. So usually small-

Amy C. Waninger:

So let me stop you there because I want to make sure that when you say small to medium-sized organizations, people understand what you mean by that. Because everybody defines the size of a business differently. Is it by revenue? Is it by employee count? What’s your definition of small to medium?

Dr. Mary “MJ” McConner:

I’m glad you stopped me. So we look at employee size typically. So that could be anywhere from maybe you have a small organization with five members, to it can go all the way up to maybe two to 3000. So that’s how we look at small to medium. And you’re right, it is defined differently. So I’m glad you had me provide clarity on that.

And when we talk about ideal clients too, and I don’t know if that was going to be like a question you were going to ask. But my ideal client is usually HR professionals. And the reason for that is because usually whenever we have someone contact us about facilitating workshops or helping develop a strategic plan for the organization, usually it’s someone from Human Resources who’s calling and reaching out to us. And I feel like human Resources has a pretty good grasp on what we do. Usually they’re the ones who are advocating for, hey, maybe we need to bring an outside consultant in to do the work. I love the partnership between my organization and several HR departments that are out there.

Amy C. Waninger:

That’s fantastic. Now, when you’re working with an HR group, when they come to you and they’re looking for a strategic plan, is that the ask that they come with? We need a strategic plan around DEI. Or how do they approach you with what they see as their need?

Dr. Mary “MJ” McConner:

Yeah, and it varies. So usually it could be anything from, we need a strategic plan to, hey, can you help us develop a train the trainer program? We need some training in workshops. We need an equity audit. Because my firm, we provide different services. So it really does vary. And I don’t have a one concrete answer just because the needs of every organization is so unique.

Amy C. Waninger:

No, that makes sense. So what do you think, when you go into these organizations, are you seeing that they’ve usually got some good traction? Are they typically starting from zero? Are they coming in with some things that are working and they need some help? Or are they really starting from scratch and you’re coming in and saying, “And here’s what we need to do”?

Dr. Mary “MJ” McConner:

Yeah, there’s a range there too. But I’ll tell you, I do like working with clients who are starting from scratch. And the reason for that is, I don’t know, I’ve always been the kind of person that I like to see stuff build. And so, for me, it’s just like a personality thing, I think. But I love to see organizations work to develop something that may not already be in place. And we do have clients who already have like DEI councils and they’re just looking to add on additional initiatives that complement their existing initiatives. But for me personally, I do enjoy working with organizations that are getting things off the ground.

Amy C. Waninger:

What is it that you … is there something in common that your clients have when you’re talking about these small to mid-sized organizations, five employees up to a couple thousand. If there was something that you would let every single one of those HR folks know. So if HR folks right now are listening and your organization is five employees to a couple thousand, this is what you need to know about getting started with your DNI initiatives, your DEI initiatives. What would that one thing be?

Dr. Mary “MJ” McConner:

The one thing would be would to be start with the plan. I know a lot of times we have ambitious goals where we’re like, okay, let’s start some employee resource groups. Or let’s go ahead and kick off some trainings or something that’s focused on DENI. But I am a firm believer that with anything, you got to start with a strategic plan or at least outline some clear goals to help you achieve what you want to achieve. Because a lot of times, when you implement maybe some trainings or if you have employee resource groups and you don’t really have any outcomes or measurable goals with it, it’s like you’re just going through the motions.

So you really want to develop something where it’s, okay, this is exactly what we would like to achieve, let’s say, over the next three to five years. This is how we’re going to measure whether or not these programs are a success. And then, we can revisit this in three to five years and revamp it and come up with some new strategies if we want to do something different. So I always, I’m a firm believer, start with a strategic plan of possible.

Amy C. Waninger:

What I love about what you just said is that I hear so often from people when I say, what are you currently doing in your organization? This is part of what we do when we’re talking to prospective clients or we’re talking to people just in networking situations, what are you doing? And a lot of times I find, I call it confusing activity with impact. Where we’re doing all the lunches and we’re doing all the heritage month and we’ve got a pitch in plan and we’ve got this plan and there’s an ice cream social and there’s this. And my question is always, so what are you getting for that?

And it’s hard to know if you don’t start with the end in mind, what results do we want to see? And I think especially for organizations in the small to mid-size space, it’s really hard because the resources are limited. They need to be very careful about where they prioritize their investment and their energy and their time and their people’s attention. And it’s easy to do the quick wins that look good or that make people like, oh yeah, I remember last Thursday when we did that. But then 50 Thursdays from now, are you going to remember that you did that? Or are you going to know if it mattered?

Dr. Mary “MJ” McConner:

Exactly. And one thing you said, and I think a big part of the reason why people tend to just jump straight into the work without really strategizing first is because they’re looking to get results really fast. And anybody who works in the DENI space will tell you it takes time. So just like any big vision, any big strategy, you have to just go through the process. Don’t feel like you have to rush to implement anything. Because usually the more strategic you are, the more outcomes you have … or I’m sorry. The more measurable goals you have, the better the outcomes will be. Like you said, the impact portion is really important instead of just going straight into implementation. So no, great advice. I love what you just said there.

Amy C. Waninger:

So when clients work with you to put a strategic plan in place, what kinds of results can they expect to have?

Dr. Mary “MJ” McConner:

I think some of the biggest results that a lot of our clients see is … and it does vary depending on what their specific goals are. But I know I have some clients who have come to me and told me personally that they’ve been able to implement some, like a train the trainer program. They have been able to implement different strategies around how to recruit, hire, and retain diverse talent. The retention part is big.

And I’m trying to think of some of the other things too, especially with the equity audit. That’s really big because it allows you to look at your practices, policies, and protocols and really assess, okay, are there certain areas where this could be a barrier for some folks? And as a result of the equity audit, a lot of organizations have gone back and looked at some of their practices and protocols and said, okay, we recognize that this could be a potential barrier for some. Let’s revisit this and revise it, so that way we have an equitable and inclusive environment for all of the people who work for our organization. So it always brings me great joy too, when I hear someone will come back to me and say, “This is really good. I’m so glad that we worked with you because you really helped us gain a better understanding of how we can become more equitable.” Not just, okay, here’s a strategy, go implement. We actually work through it and talk about the impact that this will have on your organization. Not just short term, but in the long term.

Amy C. Waninger:

This policies and practices and procedures piece is really key. Because like you said, there are procedural barriers that are put in place, that are artificial barriers. That if we take them down, it can make all the difference in how people interact with and move through our organizations, and also whether we retain them. But the other piece I think that’s important for policy owners in organizations to understand is, there are bad actors in your organization. If you’ve got more than a couple people in an org, somebody somewhere is going to slip through that doesn’t have good intentions. We don’t always know when they come in or we probably wouldn’t let them in. But if they’re there for a while, they’re going to start to figure out where are the places in the policies where they can hide, where they’re protected for their bad behavior.

And I always tell my clients, don’t give bad actors a place to hide in your policies. Let’s assume everybody’s great. Let’s assume that a hundred percent of the people in your organization are fantastic. But tomorrow by accident, somebody gets in who has ill intent. How are you going to use your policies to manage them out? Because they can do a lot of damage. And with this retention piece that you mentioned, I think it’s so important because I don’t know about you, but a lot of people will come to me and say, “We really need to do a better job of hiring diverse talent.” And I always say, “What are you doing to retain the diverse talent you have?”

Dr. Mary “MJ” McConner:

That’s it.

Amy C. Waninger:

Because if you’re not going to retain folks, you might as well take all those recruiting dollars and put them in a paper shredder.

Dr. Mary “MJ” McConner:

Yes. Yes.

Amy C. Waninger:

And I think these two pieces work really well together. Can you speak a little bit more to the policy piece and the retention piece where people need to be focused?

Dr. Mary “MJ” McConner:

Absolutely. And the reason I brought that up is just for the very reason what you just stated, is that a lot of times we focus on the recruitment efforts and then the hiring and getting folks in the door. But we’re not always looking at, okay, is the organizational culture conducive to a place where a person would want to come and be every day?

Some of the things we hear from different employees who are from various underrepresented groups is, I don’t really feel a sense of belonging all the time. Or sometimes my colleagues will go out and they never invite me. Or just looking at maybe certain protocols and policies. Some women may wear head wraps and different styles, but a lot of workplaces have different dress codes that might not always be the most culturally inclusive, just being a hundred percent honest there.

And so that’s why it’s so important that we look at, okay, once we get folks in our organization, what can we do to make sure they feel supported and feel like it’s truly equitable and they feel a sense of belonging? And usually that’s where I come in. I can help with that. And in addition to the equity audits, we also do climate assessments, as well. And that’s really important because it helps you gauge where you are. And I’m a firm believer, you have to know where you are in order to know where you’re going to go next. And so it’s important to get that feedback from employees so that we can be better employers.

Amy C. Waninger:

Absolutely. And I always tell folks, every organization is inclusive for someone. No organization is inclusive for everyone.

Dr. Mary “MJ” McConner:

True. That’s true.

Amy C. Waninger:

And the job of the policymakers and the job of the executives is to make sure that the people you intend to include, on the one hand, and the people that feel included, on the other hand, have as much overlap as possible. And you don’t know that if you don’t ask.

Dr. Mary “MJ” McConner:

You have to ask. Whether it be through focus groups, through surveys, even just casual conversations. But you have to ask. Because I think one of the worst things we can do is assume, oh yeah, we got this. Everyone feels included, we’re a great culture. A lot of people will say like, yeah, they say this, but their actions don’t really align. And so you never want to be that company that’s known as putting out like certain DEI statements but then internally folks don’t feel like you’re not living up to that. So that’s why it’s really important to make sure you talk to your employees regularly.

Amy C. Waninger:

100%. Dr. MJ, let me ask you this. Once people have put their strategic plan in place, they start working their plan, they’re starting to see results. Where do they go from there? Is it more of the same? Do you recommend they revisit and replan? How do you keep the momentum going and what’s usually the timeline for the plans you put in place?

Dr. Mary “MJ” McConner:

Usually strategic plans go typically anywhere from three to five years. But I will say this, even though most strategic plans go from three to five years, there’s nothing saying you can’t do a one-year plan, especially if you’re new to doing maybe DEI work in your organization. There’s nothing saying you can’t do a shorter one to two year plan, and then go back and revisit it and see, okay, was this effective? What can we do differently? So I will say that. I missed the second part of your question, I think you asked it.

Amy C. Waninger:

No, that’s fine. So the second part of the question is, where do they go from there? Do you recommend that they start with a new plan? Do they iterate? Are you looking at long-term and then another long-term? Are you looking for iterative cycles in the interim?

Dr. Mary “MJ” McConner:

Definitely. So I’m a firm believer that it’s important to revisit and to assess where you are. So once you have reached a point where it’s okay, this strategic plan is almost up and you don’t want to wait too close to the end of it. But you say, okay, we’re two years in, let’s go back and let’s revisit this, and let’s create an new plans. Because DEI, it has to be so ingrained in what we do on a day-to-day.

And one of the trends we’ve been seeing unfortunately, is the George Floyd situation encouraged a lot of employers to implement DEI policies and to bring on chief diversity officers for the first time. But now we’re seeing it fade out in some organizations. And I always caution against that and say, okay, you never want your employees to think that you were just doing this because it was a hot button issue. Like you want it to be consistent and ongoing. And so that’s why it’s important to make sure any DEI effort you implement or strategic plan you implement, that you keep it going. And that you constantly update that every two to five years or whatever the strategic plan term limit is.

Amy C. Waninger:

Excellent. Dr. MJ, I want to thank you so much for being on the show, for being part of this series and for this conversation. I have learned so much about you and your work. And I hope that higher ed and nonprofits are listening, that their HR reps are listening, and that they call on you to help them get their plans in place and execute on them, and iterate on them. So that they can be equitable, so they can retain folks, so they can truly do the work of DEI and not just talk about the work of DEI. Thank you.

Dr. Mary “MJ” McConner:

Thank you, and I appreciate you for having me today.

Voiceover Announcer:

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Amy C. Waninger:

That’s it for this week’s episode of Including You. Be sure to join me next week when my guest will be Lawrence Brinson from Gardner-Webb University.